wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
6 years ago
I have been expecting some fallout like this but not to this degree nor this quickly.

Outside the Lines 

It's a pretty long article and I have not finished it. From what I have read I think OTL is 100% accurate.

From the NFL to rec leagues, football is facing a stark, new threat: an evaporating insurance market that is fundamentally altering the economics of the sport, squeezing and even killing off programs faced with higher costs and a scarcity of available coverage, an Outside the Lines investigation has found.

The NFL no longer has general liability insurance covering head trauma, according to multiple sources; just one carrier is willing to provide workers' compensation coverage for NFL teams. Before concussion litigation roiled the NFL beginning in 2011, at least a dozen carriers occupied the insurance market for pro football, according to industry experts.

The insurance choices for football helmet manufacturers are equally slim; one helmet company executive said he was aware of only one. Pop Warner Little Scholars, which oversees 225,000 youth players, was forced to switch insurers after its longtime carrier, a subsidiary of the insurance giant AIG, refused to provide coverage without an exclusion for any neurological injury.

"People say football will never go away, but if we can't get insurance, it will," Jon Butler, Pop Warner's executive director, lamented to colleagues after discovering that just one carrier was willing to cover the organization for head trauma, according to a person who was present.

Dr. Julian Bailes, Pop Warner's medical director and a member of the NFL's Head, Neck and Spine Committee, told Outside the Lines "insurance coverage is arguably the biggest threat to the sport."



In fact, pressure from litigation has already led to numerous improvements in player safety at all levels. The NFL has spent tens of millions of dollars on concussion research, sponsored a nationwide program called Heads Up to promote player safety and enacted dozens of rule changes designed to reduce head injuries. One of those rules for this season, an effort to curb targeting, generated intense preseason scrutiny and discussion among players, fans and coaches, even as commissioner Roger Goodell said, "Our focus is on how to take the head out of the game and make sure we're using the helmet as protection, and it's not being used as a weapon."



As I read this I kept thinking about what I thought was an incredibly stupid comment my driver's ed teacher told us back in the 70's. He said as cars add more and more safety equipment people are feeling more and more secure. They are relaxing to a larger degree. They are taking more chances. "IF EVER CAR HAD A DAGGER IN THE STEERING WHEEL THAT WAS POINTED AT THE DRIVER THERE WOULD BE A LOT FEWER ACCIDENTS BECAUSE DRIVERS WOULD BE GOING SLOWER. THEY WOULD BE MORE COURTEOUS TO OTHERS. THEY WOULD TAKE FEWER CHANCES." In a way the same can be said for football. If they had the old leather helmets there would be fewer helmet to helmet hits. Almost no one would try to spear another player. There is no way in the world the NFL would go back to that kind of a helmet but players get a sense of invulnerability with the newer, "safer" helmets.
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KRK
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  • Veteran Member
6 years ago
WPR, great post...a real problem. Waivers go only so far in protecting coach. The point regarding development beyond the leather helmet is ironic and compelling.

If leagues can't get coverage, then coaches can't get it. And only and idiot would coach without either private or school based insurance coverage...then we get the worst coaches and likely even worse outcomes.

I am frankly surprised hockey can get coverage.
In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
beast
6 years ago

Great points wpr! Needing or lacking of insurance coverage is starting a number of different things, as insurance companies are being more cautious as America has become more sue happy if anything goes wrong, as sometimes users are winning lawsuits even if it's users own fault.

I was sent an email that was the 10 stupidest lawsuits of the year, that actually won in court (some of which were overturned upon appeal)... the one that has really stuck in my mind was a women won a lawsuit against her car maker because, while on the highway she put her cruise control on, and took her hands and feet off of the controls expecting to stay in the lane while she did something else... she of course had a bad crash, and sued based on, nowhere in the owner's manual does it say you have to keep your hands on the wheel during cruise control... and somehow won the first court case.... which of course the company was refusing to pay as they appealed, but they said all the new owners manual would be updated to say keep your hands on the wheel.


But back to things we are losing for lack of insurance coverage, I remember I used to LOVE going to my neighborhood pool... it had two diving boards, the high one was great. I'm guessing the high one was 15 foot high.... my highschool had one too. Now I can't even find a place with a low diving board... when I asked around to find out why... they said lawsuits drove the insurance too high so most pools wouldn't put them in and even if they did, most diving board makers were now building them with the least amount of spring possible to avoid lawsuits and therefore they were less fun.

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yooperfan
6 years ago
Money grubbing insurance companies and lawyers will obliterate many of the things that us free spirited Americans have enjoyed and taken for granted for most of our lives.
My time on this earth is short, my grandchildren's lives are just beginning.
They probably won't know sports as we know them today.
I wonder if my grandchildren will be willing to pay a hundred bucks a seat to watch the Green Bay Packers play flag football.
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
6 years ago

Money grubbing insurance companies and lawyers will obliterate many of the things that us free spirited Americans have enjoyed and taken for granted for most of our lives.
My time on this earth is short, my grandchildren's lives are just beginning.
They probably won't know sports as we know them today.
I wonder if my grandchildren will be willing to pay a hundred bucks a seat to watch the Green Bay Packers play flag football.

Originally Posted by: yooperfan 



yoop, "money grubbing insurance companies" really? Here'a list of Forbes most profitable companies in 2016. I am sorry I couldn't find 2017 list. It's too early for 2018.

1. Apple
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 3
2016 Profits: $45.7 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 21%
2. J.P. Morgan Chase
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 21
2016 Profits: $24.7 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
3. Berkshire Hathaway
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 2
2016 Profits: $24.1 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 11%
4. Wells Fargo
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 25
2016 Profits: $21.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
5. Alphabet (Google)
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 27
2016 Profits: $19.5 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 22%
6. Bank of America
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 26
2016 Profits: $17.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 19%
7. Microsoft
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 28
2016 Profits: $16.8 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 20%
8. Johnson & Johnson
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 35
2016 Profits: $16.5 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
9. Citigroup
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 30
2016 Profits: $14.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 18%
10. Altria Group
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 148
2016 Profits: $14.2 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 74%

Only one of them is into insurance to any significance. That is Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway. While they own a few insurance companies they are into a lot of other things as well.

All businesses need to make a profit. Insurance is no different than any other business. They look at the exposure/cost and come up with prices based on it. There are 50 Departments of Insurance. There are over 1000 insurance companies. There is no way possible to over charge the consumer in this day and age. Government regulation and competition won't allow it. In the personal auto line alone I have people call me every single day and complain that the price went up $5 dollars, $10 or what ever. I showed a guy who was complaining that the price actually decreased the last 3 times and his insurance was actually 25% less than it was 2 years ago. If you owned stock in a company you would demand they do their best to provide you with the greatest returns possible. Just because you personally have chosen not to invest don't make it wrong. (For the record I don't have any stock either.)

As for your lawyer comment, in the past I pointed the finger at them but you know what, it's not their fault. As beast pointed out juries are awarding settlements right and left. Well beyond what insurance companies ever dreamed possible.

As an example of the weak jury issue, I sat on a DWI case. The dude was weaving all over the road. He said he had a beer 3-4 hours earlier. His wife said they split the beer. His buddy said the three of them split the beer 3-4 hours earlier. And yet after all that time he still blew a .08 90 minutes after being arrested. .08 on 1 beer! I don't think it's possible for an 80 pound person to register that high on 1 beer at any time. Any how in the jury room a guy roughly 30 years old said he wasn't going to convict him. After all some day it might be him and he hopes he has someone watching his back. 2 other guys nodded in agreement.

People award huge judgments because they hope they will get a windfall some day. That's why people buy lottery tickets. They want to win even thought hey know it's not very likely.

Insurance and even trial lawyers are only reflecting the views of society. We are about the same age. Do you remember these issues back in the late 60's and early 70's? No way. Society has changed.
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KRK
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member
6 years ago
WPR, good perspectives, as usual.

Tort reforms are necessary as we are all paying the cost for frivolous law-suits.

Insurance Companies aren't the bad guys here (I don't work for, sell, or own any insurance stocks.) To stay in business they HAVE to plan on making a profit predicated on actuarial risk, and with potential litigation, some of it frivolous, the risk/return ratio simply does not justify writing the policies.

If insurance companies can't make money they won't provide the service. It is important to keep in mind this is the same reality with any other service or product...including healthcare)
In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
gbguy20
6 years ago
Can we blame the medical industry then for driving up the prices in this country so absurdly astronomically ridiculously high that even the insurance can no longer afford to pay the medical bills either?
BAD EMAIL because the address couldn ot be found, or is unable to receive mail.
yooperfan
6 years ago

yoop, "money grubbing insurance companies" really? Here'a list of Forbes most profitable companies in 2016. I am sorry I couldn't find 2017 list. It's too early for 2018.

1. Apple
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 3
2016 Profits: $45.7 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 21%
2. J.P. Morgan Chase
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 21
2016 Profits: $24.7 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
3. Berkshire Hathaway
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 2
2016 Profits: $24.1 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 11%
4. Wells Fargo
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 25
2016 Profits: $21.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
5. Alphabet (Google)
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 27
2016 Profits: $19.5 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 22%
6. Bank of America
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 26
2016 Profits: $17.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 19%
7. Microsoft
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 28
2016 Profits: $16.8 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 20%
8. Johnson & Johnson
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 35
2016 Profits: $16.5 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
9. Citigroup
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 30
2016 Profits: $14.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 18%
10. Altria Group
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 148
2016 Profits: $14.2 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 74%

Only one of them is into insurance to any significance. That is Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway. While they own a few insurance companies they are into a lot of other things as well.

All businesses need to make a profit. Insurance is no different than any other business. They look at the exposure/cost and come up with prices based on it. There are 50 Departments of Insurance. There are over 1000 insurance companies. There is no way possible to over charge the consumer in this day and age. Government regulation and competition won't allow it. In the personal auto line alone I have people call me every single day and complain that the price went up $5 dollars, $10 or what ever. I showed a guy who was complaining that the price actually decreased the last 3 times and his insurance was actually 25% less than it was 2 years ago. If you owned stock in a company you would demand they do their best to provide you with the greatest returns possible. Just because you personally have chosen not to invest don't make it wrong. (For the record I don't have any stock either.)

As for your lawyer comment, in the past I pointed the finger at them but you know what, it's not their fault. As beast pointed out juries are awarding settlements right and left. Well beyond what insurance companies ever dreamed possible.

As an example of the weak jury issue, I sat on a DWI case. The dude was weaving all over the road. He said he had a beer 3-4 hours earlier. His wife said they split the beer. His buddy said the three of them split the beer 3-4 hours earlier. And yet after all that time he still blew a .08 90 minutes after being arrested. .08 on 1 beer! I don't think it's possible for an 80 pound person to register that high on 1 beer at any time. Any how in the jury room a guy roughly 30 years old said he wasn't going to convict him. After all some day it might be him and he hopes he has someone watching his back. 2 other guys nodded in agreement.

People award huge judgments because they hope they will get a windfall some day. That's why people buy lottery tickets. They want to win even thought hey know it's not very likely.

Insurance and even trial lawyers are only reflecting the views of society. We are about the same age. Do you remember these issues back in the late 60's and early 70's? No way. Society has changed.

Originally Posted by: wpr 


WPR, as I hit the post button it occurred to me that my post might irritate you and that wasn't my intent.
However, historically big insurance companies have been big money makers. Perhaps in this day and age not so much as during the 60's and 70's.
Insurance companies back in those days had such deep pockets that they had no problems financing other big companies big projects like two iron mines right here in Ishpeming.
I'm sure times have changed and I simply haven't kept up but I know a number of agency owners in this area and none of them are hurting by any means.
As far as lawyers go, my brother in law is an insurance company lawyer and I can't stand his arrogant ass. Never mind that he's a Lions fan.
I do understand that we live in an increasingly litigious society which probably puts a lot of financial pressures on insurance companies but at this point in my life I doubt that my feelings about insurance companies and lawyers will change.

KRK
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member
6 years ago
If you sit down and talk with doctors, they will tell you that the biggest cost of medical care results in medical malpractice and the tests ordered and procedures undertaken to "cover their asses" against ambulance chasers.

Are their bad doctors...yes. Are there bad insurance companies/policies/procedures...yes. But without question, the two biggest costs are unnecessary tests, and covering the uninsured....I am attaching an article from Time Magazine, not exactly the bastion of capitalism....http://time.com/3754900/doctors-unnecessary-tests/

But back to the essence of the thread, if someone thinks there is money to be made insuring football players, leagues, etc., go out and raise the money and start one and if you are right, you will make tons of money.
In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
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beast (6h) : Wow, 95% drop in investment revenue? Would be interesting to hear the details of why...
dfosterf (25-Jul) : It's my one day deal complaint dept. on shareholder meeting day
dfosterf (25-Jul) : Probably a homer access credential intimidation kinda thing
dfosterf (25-Jul) : Meathead "journalists" skip this, concentrating on operational revenue when convenient. They switch when net revenue is more favorable.
dfosterf (25-Jul) : Resulting in an actual drop of net revenue of 12.5%. She is from Minnesota. Just sayin'
dfosterf (25-Jul) : Any plans to hold Maureen Smith (CFO) accountable for a 95% drop in investment revenue?
Mucky Tundra (25-Jul) : In your face, HBO!
Mucky Tundra (25-Jul) : @ByRyanWood Mark Murphy: “A great source of pride of mine is that we were never on Hard Knocks.”
Mucky Tundra (25-Jul) : *years
Mucky Tundra (25-Jul) : @mattschneidman Mark Murphy says he anticipates “many Packers games” being played in Germany, Ireland and/or the U.K. over the next 5-10 yea
dfosterf (25-Jul) : *cafeteria* I have hit my head also, so I sympathize
dfosterf (25-Jul) : Possibly hit his head leaning into the glass protecting the food in the cafateria
dfosterf (25-Jul) : Maybe a low flying drone
dfosterf (25-Jul) : Did Savion Williams run into a goalpost or something?
Mucky Tundra (25-Jul) : also, no bueno when a guy starts getting concussions right off the bat in his career
Zero2Cool (25-Jul) : Concussion is worse. Banks probably vet off day via back booboo claim
Mucky Tundra (25-Jul) : @AndyHermanNFL Jordy Nelson out at camp today. No word if he’s in play for one of the two open roster spots ; )
dfosterf (25-Jul) : Is that better or worse than Banks bad back?
Zero2Cool (25-Jul) : Savion concussion ... not good.
packerfanoutwest (24-Jul) : Aaron Rodgers’s first pass of first team period was picked off
Mucky Tundra (24-Jul) : tbh I didn't hear of his passing
Zero2Cool (24-Jul) : Cosby Show. Malcom Jamal Warner I think is real name
Mucky Tundra (24-Jul) : I was thinking of Ozzy and Hulk
Mucky Tundra (24-Jul) : Who's Theo?
Zero2Cool (24-Jul) : How is Theo alliteration?
Mucky Tundra (24-Jul) : Bad week for people whose names are alliterations
Zero2Cool (24-Jul) : Hulk Hogan gone too.
Zero2Cool (24-Jul) : Oh, it's toe injury
Zero2Cool (24-Jul) : Hope it's not serious. that would stink
dfosterf (24-Jul) : Sounds like an ankle not a knee for Fields
dfosterf (24-Jul) : Ya Flaccp on Browns
Zero2Cool (24-Jul) : Maybe Tyrod Taylor instead
Zero2Cool (24-Jul) : He's on Browns, right?
dfosterf (24-Jul) : They would probably go with Flacco is my guess if Fields out
dfosterf (24-Jul) : Fleece 'em again!
Zero2Cool (24-Jul) : Malik Willis might be someone Jets come after
packerfanoutwest (24-Jul) : Packers introduce 1923-inspired classic uniform, leather-look helmet
Zero2Cool (23-Jul) : Both LB Quay Walker and Rookie DB Micah Robinson have passed their physicals
Zero2Cool (23-Jul) : Happy to see site feels more snappy snappy
Zero2Cool (23-Jul) : No sir. I did not.
dfosterf (23-Jul) : You didn't get free childcare when you were at work?
wpr (23-Jul) : These guys make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Pay for their own childcare.
dfosterf (23-Jul) : 2nd issue. Number 1 issue was no gameday childcare. 1 of 3 teams not providing it
Zero2Cool (23-Jul) : Suppose if locker room is main issue, we sitting pretty
wpr (23-Jul) : I thought so Mucky. In those useless player polls GB always rates high overall. Locker is a part of it.
Mucky Tundra (23-Jul) : Wasn't the locker room just updated like 6 or 7 years ago?
Zero2Cool (23-Jul) : I have forum updated on different site. We'll see how this one goes before going to that
Zero2Cool (23-Jul) : Elgton Jenkins has a back injury, is expect to end contract dispute
wpr (23-Jul) : It's funny the PA complained about the locker room. It wasn't that long ago it was top shelf. Things change in a hurry.
wpr (23-Jul) : The site is much more better.
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