Cheesey
16 years ago
Yes.......the mental part can be the hardest to overcome.
I think it HAD to have an impact on his play.
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zombieslayer
16 years ago

I didn't read the chat, but i guess i don't see this as definitive of anything. i know several people who won't admit they're hurting, ever. I hope hawk was hurt. because his play was garbage. it's still wishful thinking, but what i'm saying is that i don't feel like this quote settles the discussion.

"IronMan" wrote:


Agreed.

"bozz_2006" wrote:



I third.

My Dad was that way. He's old now, but even in his 40s, he still whipped kids in their 20s. It was funny to see some guy with gray hair whip on some young punk in b-ball, tackle football, and tennis.

I think a lot of top competitors will not make excuses even when they are genuine problems. My former boss's boss once always said "it's my fault," even when you knew 100% it was your fault. Always took the blame. Always. That guy's a multi-millionaire, highly successful, highly motivated, works 50+ hours a week every week and never gets sick.

I kind of see Hawk like that. Kampy's the same way. So is Donald Driver.
My man Donald Driver
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warhawk
16 years ago
I am just going to say I don't think Hawk will be sad to see Sanders go, or, at least the scheme he was asked to play in anyways.

When the guy was at Ohio St. he spent more time in the opposing teams backfield than any defender I can remember. He was ALWAYS back there running down QB's and RB's.

In the defense we had been playing they wanted him to stay home, read, and make the play at the line of scrimmage rather than attack and raise hell in the backfield which I think is where he is much better and more comfortable.

I just think if they play a defense where he is cut loose and allowed to attack he will flourish and a lot of opinions about him would change.
"The train is leaving the station."
gbpfan
16 years ago
Warhawk I hope what you say is true,Hawk had spurts and then sputtered so maybe mew coach will use his skills.
Pack93z
  • Pack93z
  • Select Member Topic Starter
16 years ago

I am just going to say I don't think Hawk will be sad to see Sanders go, or, at least the scheme he was asked to play in anyways.

When the guy was at Ohio St. he spent more time in the opposing teams backfield than any defender I can remember. He was ALWAYS back there running down QB's and RB's.

In the defense we had been playing they wanted him to stay home, read, and make the play at the line of scrimmage rather than attack and raise hell in the backfield which I think is where he is much better and more comfortable.

I just think if they play a defense where he is cut loose and allowed to attack he will flourish and a lot of opinions about him would change.

"warhawk" wrote:



I hope that is it.. some of the plays I watched in the last 3 weeks of the season.. Hawk had open gaps to shoot the run and just plain sat in the hole and waited.. if a scheme called for that type of play, then the scheme is junk without doubt.

But watching Bishop play within the scheme and Hawk play... it was night and day in the running game.. I just hope it is the scheme. But....
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
bozz_2006
16 years ago

I am just going to say I don't think Hawk will be sad to see Sanders go, or, at least the scheme he was asked to play in anyways.

When the guy was at Ohio St. he spent more time in the opposing teams backfield than any defender I can remember. He was ALWAYS back there running down QB's and RB's.

In the defense we had been playing they wanted him to stay home, read, and make the play at the line of scrimmage rather than attack and raise hell in the backfield which I think is where he is much better and more comfortable.

I just think if they play a defense where he is cut loose and allowed to attack he will flourish and a lot of opinions about him would change.

"pack93z" wrote:



I hope that is it.. some of the plays I watched in the last 3 weeks of the season.. Hawk had open gaps to shoot the run and just plain sat in the hole and waited.. if a scheme called for that type of play, then the scheme is junk without doubt.

But watching Bishop play within the scheme and Hawk play... it was night and day in the running game.. I just hope it is the scheme. But....

"warhawk" wrote:



93z, what warhawk is describing is what i was trying (not very successfully) to get at a couple weeks ago when i said that he had to think rather than follow his instinct. there have been so many times where he could've pounced on a guy but in sanders' friggin "gap control" defense, your responsibility was straight in front of you, and following that responsibilty was more important than making the play. the gap control defense works on the assumption that you have to stay home so the cutback doesn't happen, and if the guy isn't in your gap, then you don't attack. problem is, everyone was counting on somebody else to make the play. makes me want to puke just thinking about it now.
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Pack93z
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16 years ago



93z, what warhawk is describing is what i was trying (not very successfully) to get at a couple weeks ago when i said that he had to think rather than follow his instinct. there have been so many times where he could've pounced on a guy but in sanders' friggin "gap control" defense, your responsibility was straight in front of you, and following that responsibilty was more important than making the play. the gap control defense works on the assumption that you have to stay home so the cutback doesn't happen, and if the guy isn't in your gap, then you don't attack. problem is, everyone was counting on somebody else to make the play. makes me want to puke just thinking about it now.

"bozz_2006" wrote:



Okay, let me explain it another way, boy I wish I had my hands on the premise behind his scheme and how far he extended the lanes of the linebackers.

Most 4-3 Gap defenses are built upon the premise that the Dline controls the gap responsibilities in the run defense, the notion of playing gap as I was taught was the dline attacked different oline gaps to ensure that the offensive lineman didn't get free lanes to block the backers.

In turn, the backers have a primary responsibility to read the play (run/pass) effectively, once it is determined to be a run play, they have specific lanes based on the defensive fronts package. Example, a 22 was where both DT pinched in and attacked the centers gap.. their goal to tie up not only the center but the inside shoulders of the guards.. 2 on 3 mentality, but the DT's job was to get as wide as possible and chip the hell out of the guards. This clogged the middle of the offensive and allowed the middle backer to flow off either guards outside shoulder. On a 22, the DE had one on one matchups and the strong side backer had normally the Tightend to beat.. Strongside safety in this case always had outside responsibility in the running game and was the key to the defense.. he had to be rangy and smart..

Outside backers, primarily the will had the most freedom in the scheme.. ideally he should be able to freely flow in the scheme.. granted, guys get beat, but in the box, you are expected to hold up and within 3 seconds get free from the block..

Gap control as I was taught, was always the line clogging and the backers flowing..

Maybe it was Sanders scheme to have the backers sit and react... instead of flowing.. if that was the case, and not sure how we will ever know for sure the design of the scheme, then it was garbage..

Why I think it wasn't in the scheme, was watching Bishop play verse Hawk play the Wil.. Bishop was playing downhill once he read run in the scheme and attacking the lanes.. Hawk in the same role was sitting back and waiting for the play to come to him.. same position... maybe that is why they didn't play Bishop in the middle, maybe Bishop was playing outside the scheme and that pissed Sanders off.. BTW.. that is part of the reason Bishop got exposed in the passing game.. a little to aggressive in run support then trying to turn around and play man coverage. That is the design flaw in the defense.

In all the footballs camps I attended in the 3 years I hit them hard, I never was asked to play a sit and wait approach as a linebacker.. you had specific lanes that were your primary responsibilities, but you never were taught to wait as a backer unless you had back door responsibility on an edge play.. flow, keep the play ahead of you and protect the edges of the defense.. make the runner go east and west as much as possible and pretend the corners can't tackle.. I learned to play DE and Backers in 3-4, 4-3 and Buddy Ryan's 46 scheme (the rave at the time in youth camps)... never was I taught to wait and not attack once I properly read run..

Maybe, I expect too much plain logic that Sanders wasn't holding the backers from attacking.. but either way.. I am not impressed with the play of the backers in general.. but I could be placing too much blame upon their shoulders.

Want a true opinion.. I think the backers, primarily Hawk as I focused on him, had a heck of a time diagnosing the play properly... I buy more into the coverage scheme that backers were forced to play if the play was pass.. they played almost a strictly man to man coverage, so if you had a hard time diagnosing the play properly, you had to sit back and wait to ensure it wasn't a play action.. if you bit up on the fake, with the man to man responsibility in coverage, you were toast. IMHO, that is where these backers struggled.. and why I place so much of the struggles upon Moss as the position coach.

The backers IMO, struggled in two key areas that stem back to the position coach.. playing effectively with their hands in the box and reading the plays effectively.. there aren't that many teams in the NFL that run a "lights out" play action passing game.. most teams have a tell sign that can be read moments prior to the play on what the play is going to be.. on the field you should be able to see them.. a simple thing like how the oline is setting up, quarterbacks eyes moments before the snap, a backs eyes most of the time will key a running play.. etc...

Again, maybe I am giving Sanders too much credit and maybe it all laid upon his shoulders.. but the rational side in me says it doesn't all fall there.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
  • Pack93z
  • Select Member Topic Starter
16 years ago
Oh BTW... if we ever wanted to run the Ryan 46... Rouse will be a beast at the Jake position.. with his range and size.. he would have a field day..

Bad thing though, with today's passing game, the 46 days of being a base package are well past.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
RaiderPride
16 years ago

Yes.......the mental part can be the hardest to overcome.
I think it HAD to have an impact on his play.

"Cheesey" wrote:



I agree.

Although I have never had a serious sports injury, I once have been injured.

I once fried bacon in the nude. Mentally I was never able to do that again.
""People Will Probably Never Remember What You Said, And May Never Remember What You Did. However, People Will Always Remember How You Made Them Feel."
Zero2Cool
16 years ago

I am just going to say I don't think Hawk will be sad to see Sanders go, or, at least the scheme he was asked to play in anyways.

When the guy was at Ohio St. he spent more time in the opposing teams backfield than any defender I can remember. He was ALWAYS back there running down QB's and RB's.

In the defense we had been playing they wanted him to stay home, read, and make the play at the line of scrimmage rather than attack and raise hell in the backfield which I think is where he is much better and more comfortable.

I just think if they play a defense where he is cut loose and allowed to attack he will flourish and a lot of opinions about him would change.

"pack93z" wrote:



I hope that is it.. some of the plays I watched in the last 3 weeks of the season.. Hawk had open gaps to shoot the run and just plain sat in the hole and waited.. if a scheme called for that type of play, then the scheme is junk without doubt.

But watching Bishop play within the scheme and Hawk play... it was night and day in the running game.. I just hope it is the scheme. But....

"warhawk" wrote:



I am of the belief that Bishop did not get anywhere near the amount of live snaps that Hawk did at MLB and it's hard to analyze or compare the two like for like.
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