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texaspackerbacker
10 years ago

Maybe one day that poor little girl you hold captive will be successful in her murder attempt. I'll testify to the mental cruelty she's endured. hahahahaha

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



I think there's a "that's what she said" joke in there someplace hahahaha.


Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago

Hannity had a big night defending Bush and Cheney!

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/12/11/hannity-loses-his-mind-spends-night-tweeting-pictures-of-mutilated-corpses-to-justify-us-torture/ 

It kind of reminds me of all the arguments we've had about slavery and the almost genocide of our Native Americans. Hopefully some of your will make the correlation of how you've been programmed. I'd be happy with 10% but I know the mindfucking runs deep with some of you - hahahahahaha!!!!

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



Gotta go to class, but I sometimes wonder if you watch Fox more than the conservatives here that you like to bash. :)

(I had to google "Hannity" to figure out who you were talking about, actually, it's been so long since I've watched FoxNews, or any television other than Packer games, for that matter.)


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago

Wade, I respect the fact that you are consistent in your anti-government stance, and in differentiating that from being anti-American. Just the same, there is a lot of wrongness in your post(s) on this topic.

While your first paragraph my be valid, the point is, the clear perpetrator in "crimes" that have already occurred are often the best sources having knowledge of yet to be perpetrated "crimes". I put quotation marks on "crimes" because that is how the left would treat these acts of terrorism, which more accurately should be considered acts of war - IMO.

I would sum up my reply to the rest of your post by simply saying/asking: What the hell is wrong with invoking National Security? National Security boils down to protecting the LIFE primarily, but also the LIBERTY and PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS of all Americans. Excuse me for saying so, but YES, I do want to override the Constitution to avert even a hint of that. You are correct about the rules being changed, and I HOPE you will agree, it wasn't us - America - that changed the rules. It was the God damned Muslim terrorists. If they want Jihad - holy war - with us, then I, for one, have no problem with giving them exactly that - WAR without limits - and virtually, at least, unrestrained by the Constitution or anything else.

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



Substitute "Jacobin" for "terrorist" and you'd sound like a lot of advisor to George the III c. 1770-1800.


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
texaspackerbacker
10 years ago

Why do you and the rest of the heartless, always believe that there is a justification with evil deeds? For some reason, those deeds are now exonerated because people were strong enough to overcome unbearable acts perpetrated on them.

Justice for Bush and Cheney's war crimes would be public execution by guillotine. Justice for blacks would be class action law suits against the descendants of the plantation owners and completely gut them of their wealth. There will never be justice for the Native Americans.

The problem with people that think like you, Ray, is that you have zero compassion for people's suffering. You're a selfish man who thinks of his creature comforts over anything else. You have no respect for the sacrifices made by all walks of life that provided you the life of leisure you've led. You really do not have a conscience and that is pretty sad. What's worse is that these things can be pointed out to you, and you still don't give a fuck. At least Gunny goes on a bender, where he torments his own conscience about his appalling existence. You, just don't care.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



You get more hilarious all the time. I'm still wondering what that 10% crap was all about. Evil deeds? People suffering? How delusional can you get?

What people do you see SUFFERING - black or otherwise - in America anyway? (I assume you have yet again departed from the topic of the thread, and are NOT talking about the well deserved suffering of the God damned Muslims who the CIA supposedly tortured. On THAT topic, Bush and Cheney are definitely patriots for condoning those delightfully horrendous tactics and for keeping the country safe from further acts of terror. Even your beloved black president gets some praise in that extremely limited area.

However, it seems like you are off on your usual tangent again of class warfare, etc. - how the "rich" that you are so jealous of "steal" from some phantom group you refer to as the "poor".

Yeah, you're right. I just don't give a damn. I'm just too busy soaking up all the WONDERFULNESS of America - that magnificent combination of comfort and prosperity along with the freedom to enjoy it. Thank you Bush; Thank you Cheney; Thank you CIA and even more so, our military; and even a miniscule amount, thank you Obama for preserving that WONDERFULNESS and kicking ass/brutalizing the God damned Muslims and any others who would mess with that WONDERFULNESS.

I really am curious, though, who exactly you fantasize to be poor or suffering in this country.


Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
texaspackerbacker
10 years ago

Substitute "Jacobin" for "terrorist" and you'd sound like a lot of advisor to George the III c. 1770-1800.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Gosh, I feel so "talked down to" hahahahaha - I actually had to go and look up "Jacobin".

Do I have this straight? You are equating a British (or was it French) political club which reputedly was behind the French Revolution - arguably a good thing for mankind - to the most despicable of the despicable, Muslim terrorists committing acts of barbarism and trying to drag civilization back to the tyranny and depravity of the 7th Century? Or was it those revolting Americans of 1770-1800 that you are equating to today's horrendously evil Muslims?


Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago

Gosh, I feel so "talked down to" hahahahaha - I actually had to go and look up "Jacobin".

Do I have this straight? You are equating a British (or was it French) political club which reputedly was behind the French Revolution - arguably a good thing for mankind - to the most despicable of the despicable, Muslim terrorists committing acts of barbarism and trying to drag civilization back to the tyranny and depravity of the 7th Century? Or was it those revolting Americans of 1770-1800 that you are equating to today's horrendously evil Muslims?

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



I'm equating the way you (or, if you prefer, Rumsfeld, et al) let your fear of/worry about terrorist acts to the way English leaders c. 1770-1800 worried about the acts of revolutionaries. Who was Jacobin and who wasn't was largely beside the point when it came to these fears. "Jacobin" was a term used by Geo III and his ministers, and by a significant number of news writers/readers/ordinary citizens; and they didn't use it just to refer to a bunch of effete French clubsters. It was used as a shorthand for those who would riot, destroy property, and otherwise attack the institutions of what they considered the greatest land in history, the land of free-born Englishmen.

And, after 1793 and the beginning of the Reign of Terror, Terrorists *were* Jacobins, most notably Maximilien Robispierre. (This is where the term terrorist comes from.) Not all Jacobins were support of the Terror (any more than all Muslims today are advocates of terrorism today), but that is how the English of the time used the word.

And in fact, used it and similar words well before 1793.

The Americans of 1776 listed what George III did as "abuses and usurpations". To many in England, however, and many in the colonies (typically Tories) those actions were to keep the lid on those that threatened the English way of life.

Put it this way....what are the odds that one of today's "Muslim wackos" is going to do something that personally puts my life in danger when I fly or when I go about my everyday life? They are a lot smaller than the odds some radical follower of Tom Paine or Sam Adams c. 1775 would be tarring-and-feathering a Tory in Boston. In a very real way, the Tory fears of those they labelled Jacobins (who included both Paine and Adams) were more likely to be personally realized than your or my individual fears of what "Muslim extremists" might do to us.

And *their* fears didn't justify interference with the natural rights of man by the state to the extent that Geo III interfered with them.




And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago
(to continue)

My biggest problem with the War on Terror is not specific issues like waterboarding. My biggest problem is the way in which we as a nation have taken counsel of our fears.

There are evil people in the world. Yep. Got that. A lot of them are Muslims. Got that, too. 9/11 was another "day that will live in infamy". Yep, still with you. The world has crazies and that means it is a dangerous place. And if some crazy blows up my building, I'm dead as the proverbial doornail.

And all that means we still need Marines and the rest to do the nasty bits to protect us. I'm there, too.

But....and this to me is a really HUGE HONKING BUT: when it comes to the design for state action (a/k/a "policy-making"; a/k/a deciding who to "go to war against"), that design *must* not be governed solely or primarily by our fears. And it must not be made without empirical attention to the real risks involved: yes, there are dangers, but before we as a matter of national policy decide its okay to make systematic exceptions to the principles our system is built upon, we had damn well better be sure that the risks are not just real but as big and as personal as the public rhetoric suggests.

And no one, anywhere, has yet demonstrated to me that the risks to the average American justify the systematic freedom-trampling of the "Patriot" Act nor the millions of searches daily made by the TSA without a warrant and without probable cause.

Frankly, any constitutional violations by the professional interrogators at Gitmo are dwarfed by the systematic rape of individual rights done in the name of the War on Terror and assented to by my fellow citizens via airport searches, victim disarmament, and the dozens (hundreds? thousands) of rules of the Patriot Act and regulations promulgated under its delegated authority.

I no more think every action taken at Gitmo "crossed the constitutional line too far" than I think every one serving in Vietnam was a baby killer because Lt. Calley crossed the line at My Lai.

But I do think our political leaders and generals (most generals are just politicians who wear a lot of fruit salad) have been regularly and systematically crossing the line in their pursuit of the War on Terror.

In *theory* there is nothing wrong with invoking national security. But, if one agrees with the first parts of the Declaration of Independence, "national security" comes second and "individual rights" come first. One can *legitimately* be invoked only when those doing the invoking have sufficiently made the case of necessity. And sufficiently making the case must be more than simply playing on the fears of violent death at the hands of bad guys. Sufficiently making the case means (i) showing that the risks are quantitatively and qualitatively bigger than than the destruction of rights; and (ii) demonstrating that the measures taken actually do end up reducing the risks.

And neither (i) nor (ii) have they done.

And, and what bothers me even more than the politicans' actions, I also think otherwise good and normal Americans have too often been letting them do so because those good and normal Americans have taken too much counsel of their fears.

There are a hell of a lot of risks out there that are bigger than the chance of dying at the hand of some terrorist whack job: dying of cancer or tuberculosis or heart disease come to mind, getting killed by a drunk driver, being killed by a jealous spouse, being collateral damage in a gang shooting, dying of hyperthermia when your car stalls on a snowy road in the middle of a blizzard, having too many concussions from playing football.

And NONE of those justify the taking of freedoms from each other that we've gone along with in our fear of terrorist Muslims.

Any more than George III and his ministers were justified in their abuses and their usurpations.

IMO.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
texaspackerbacker
10 years ago
Great Job, Wade, of framing the question and describing the positions of the two rational pro-American sides here (I don't count those who just plain favor the side of evil and discount the role of American in preserving all that is good in the world).

My first thought as I read your posts was: it was probably harder to transmit bad terrorist shit across the Channel in those days than it is to transport it across the Atlantic or Pacific nowadays. My second and probably more significant thought was the Sum of All Fears - as you characterize such considerations, the fact that there were no nukes back then - or Seren gas or weaponized germs or a myriad of other quite transportable items. Also (correct me if I'm historically wrong) there were far less suicidal fanatics more than willing to deliver that bad shit to kill large numbers at the expense of their own life. Also, even the Jacobin-type "terrorists" of those days were not bent on destroying all that was good in the world and turning back the clock, etc. like today's Muslims. Arguably, the tyranny that resulted in France was an unfortunate byproduct rather than the fanatical intention of the rebels.

Regarding the American Founding Fathers and the charges of abuse, etc. against the king, weren't those mainly about taxation without representation? I'm pretty sure Englishmen were still coming to America for the relative freedom at that time.

As I said last post, Wade, I greatly respect your anti-government views. Just the same, though, if you want to invoke the f word - no, not that one, I mean F-E-A-R, I would suggest that emotion is a LOT more prevalent and a LOT less justified among those expressing fear of usurpation of our freedoms by DHS, TSA, and whoever else than by those of us concerned about the prospect of mass murder of Americans by Muslim terrorists. It comes down to two things: 1 Which is more precious to lose? Lives or Freedoms? And all the flowery rhetoric aside, I'd rather NOT be dead. 2 Ultimately, you have to trust somebody - or put another way, you have to assess the motives of those being "feared" as to which is more likely to have vile and dangerous intentions: Muslim terrorists or Americans charged with protecting our Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness. I don't know about you, but I think I'll side with the GOOD GUYS.

I always enjoy your posts, Wade, but there is one small item that kinda pisses me off - basically the topic of this thread. That would be the way you seemingly equate the "mistreatment" (I would call it deserved and justified treatment) of terrorists at Guantanamo with deprivation of rights of Good Normal Americans or even garden variety American criminals - which, by my observation almost never happens.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
DakotaT
  • DakotaT
  • Select Member Topic Starter
10 years ago

You get more hilarious all the time. I'm still wondering what that 10% crap was all about. Evil deeds? People suffering? How delusional can you get?

What people do you see SUFFERING - black or otherwise - in America anyway? (I assume you have yet again departed from the topic of the thread, and are NOT talking about the well deserved suffering of the God damned Muslims who the CIA supposedly tortured. On THAT topic, Bush and Cheney are definitely patriots for condoning those delightfully horrendous tactics and for keeping the country safe from further acts of terror. Even your beloved black president gets some praise in that extremely limited area.

However, it seems like you are off on your usual tangent again of class warfare, etc. - how the "rich" that you are so jealous of "steal" from some phantom group you refer to as the "poor".

Yeah, you're right. I just don't give a damn. I'm just too busy soaking up all the WONDERFULNESS of America - that magnificent combination of comfort and prosperity along with the freedom to enjoy it. Thank you Bush; Thank you Cheney; Thank you CIA and even more so, our military; and even a miniscule amount, thank you Obama for preserving that WONDERFULNESS and kicking ass/brutalizing the God damned Muslims and any others who would mess with that WONDERFULNESS.

I really am curious, though, who exactly you fantasize to be poor or suffering in this country.

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



You are a warped, clueless man. Forget world history, you don't even know what happened on this continent. I hope you don't leave Texas very often - it's acceptable to be a walking bigot there, unfortunately it is here in North Dakota too.
UserPostedImage
texaspackerbacker
10 years ago

You are a warped, clueless man. Forget world history, you don't even know what happened on this continent. I hope you don't leave Texas very often - it's acceptable to be a walking bigot there, unfortunately it is here in North Dakota too.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



hahahaha Is this another SURRENDER by you? If so, it's Not accepted - not until you explain exactly who and where those "poor" are that you so often fantasize about.

And while you're at it, some term defining about the "bigot" thing is in order too hahahaha. If you are at least in the neighborhood of the thread topic, and are calling me a "bigot" because I HATE that sick bogus excuse of a religion known as Islam and all of its adherents - hatred in proportion to their dedication to the sick shit their bogus religion promotes, then yeah, I'm a bigot that way - I embrace it. Muslims deserve as much shit as we can heap on them - including but certainly not limited to what the CIA may have done in Guantanamo and elsewhere.

If, however, you are talking about race, look in the mirror - that's where you will find the bigot. As I have consistently pointed out, your kind portraying black people as represented by the asshole looters in Ferguson and the criminals who got killed there and in New York City, THAT is the ultimate - and sickest - kind of racism.

Glad to here - as I already knew - that Goodness and Normalcy is rampant there in North Dakota like it is here in Texas. Maybe you should move to Cali. or Taxachusetts where you will find more people who think like you hahahaha. But beware: sooner or later, Goodness and Normalcy will prevail even in those places.


Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
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