Zero2Cool
10 years ago

Your union conveyed to the league that due process for players is not a luxury, it’s a rightWhile the league currently has great concern for its brand, fairness and justice for our members is more important. For us, the starting point for these discussions must be the desire to agree upon a fair personal conduct policy and domestic violence rules from a standpoint of prevention and education. We will not accept a world where all players are viewed as perpetrators first and husbands, fathers, sons and brothers second.

DeMaurice Smith to executive committee and player representative wrote:



I think this is an excellent point. Erik Walden, for instance, his case was dismissed and still I believe he received a single or double game suspension. Why?

I still say there should be some legal precedent that states these cases (for anyone) cannot be publicized until conclusion to avoid guilty by association stigma.

Primary example for Packers fans is the type of cases like Mark Chmura's from many years ago. We will NEVER assume the male is innocent in those cases, never. Even if the court finds the defendant innocent, he is guilty by association. Granted, in Chmura's case, he's an idiot for even being in that position in the first place, but surely you get the principle being illustrated here.
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Pack93z
10 years ago
I agree to a point, they are afforded Due Process in the court system and with regards to contracts, should be afforded an extension of that right. But the NFL and its teams certainly have the right to deactivate a player when being charged with a crime, they are being paid yet and awaiting for the legal process to take its course. Ala Peterson, Hardy and others.

As far as not making it public, hell the NFL would love for it to be that way. But in today's saturated media market and arrests being of public record, there is no way a player is going to be afforded the luxury of not having it reported. It is some of the trade off in terms of the gig.. many always note that other labor laws and such don't apply to pro athletes, well in this regard it works against them.

Now, the point if the player is found innocent or the charges are dismissed, I concur no further action should be taken away from the player. In cases like AP and Hardy, they would have served a penalty of sorts in terms of not playing.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
10 years ago
The other factor that this inactive list type arrangement for players that are charged is that it will also serve as a penalty to the clubs for signing players with a propensity to get into legal trouble. Aldon Smith for instance would have an more of an incentive to keep his nose clean and change his behavior. Less teams are going to be willing to sign a player whom may not be able to play a full year because his ability to stay out of legal trouble isn't high.

In summary.. the NFL should have the ability not to have a player in action if he is "charged" with a crime above a misdemeanor. They should be entitled to their pay however, unless the club just wants to part ways with the player, IE a depth player that so many times we see cut on the arrest.

But in the end, the commissioner should have never been nor should be the sole deciding factor in the punishment of player in the personal conduct.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
10 years ago

I think this is an excellent point. Erik Walden, for instance, his case was dismissed and still I believe he received a single or double game suspension. Why?

I still say there should be some legal precedent that states these cases (for anyone) cannot be publicized until conclusion to avoid guilty by association stigma.

Primary example for Packers fans is the type of cases like Mark Chmura's from many years ago. We will NEVER assume the male is innocent in those cases, never. Even if the court finds the defendant innocent, he is guilty by association. Granted, in Chmura's case, he's an idiot for even being in that position in the first place, but surely you get the principle being illustrated here.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



It is not just big name, big money people. If I were to give a 15 yo a ride to her home in a rain storm and she accuses me of wrong doing, I would be considered guilty by the public. Even if it is proven in court that she lied or worse yet that the case was dismissed without a trial my clients would leave. I have seen it happen with a local restaurant owner, a local attorney and in other towns with other men. They don't have to own a business to be labeled lecherous.
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texaspackerbacker
10 years ago
This is like the old "morals clause" that show business people had. It's not just the NFL, it's society in general - the people - that look at accused criminals that way, and the result for the employer/team/movie studio/whatever is the celebrity or player is less popular/less of a draw for selling tickets/an embarrassment for the employer. And face it, ever since O.J. and probably before that, we all know a LOT of accused criminals get off on technicalities.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
OlHoss1884
10 years ago
The NFL is not a democracy. Someone who has been given the privilege of playing in it has the obligation to abide by its code of behavior.

Think of NFL discipline like the Navy's Captains Mast. You may not be found guilty by the standards of the legal system, but if your actions bring disrepute on the Navy you are up shit creek.

The fact is, if I were a coach/GM/owner and one of my players was accused of something, I would call him in to explain himself and I don't need a jury to decide whether I want that guy on my team. Because unless it's a case of mistaken identity (like the recent Lynch case) I don't want the stink on my team's reputation, regardless of whether a slick lawyer or fat payoff got him out of trouble.

Maybe a jury decides that beating a 4 year old with a branch isn't legally child abuse but that a-hole never plays on my team again.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" --Albert Einstein
sschind
10 years ago

The NFL is not a democracy. Someone who has been given the privilege of playing in it has the obligation to abide by its code of behavior.

Think of NFL discipline like the Navy's Captains Mast. You may not be found guilty by the standards of the legal system, but if your actions bring disrepute on the Navy you are up sh*t creek.

The fact is, if I were a coach/GM/owner and one of my players was accused of something, I would call him in to explain himself and I don't need a jury to decide whether I want that guy on my team. Because unless it's a case of mistaken identity (like the recent Lynch case) I don't want the stink on my team's reputation, regardless of whether a slick lawyer or fat payoff got him out of trouble.

Maybe a jury decides that beating a 4 year old with a branch isn't legally child abuse but that a-hole never plays on my team again.

Originally Posted by: OlHoss1884 



So if it was a big lie that got him into trouble in the first place the guy is SOL with you just because he was accused?

The Peterson and Rice cases were one thing because the evidence was more or less available from the start of the accusations but in many cases it is not and accusations fly long before any evidence one way or the other is available.

Someone accuses your player of assault or some other crime and you cut his ass then its found out two or three weeks or more later that the entire thing was made up and you already judged the guy simply because he was accused. Nice.

Smokey
10 years ago
Many believe that people are innocent until proven guilty and that the courts and businesses operate in this most fair manner. It is a shock when they discover that it is really the other way around. Many a poor man has gone to prison or lost a job because they could not afford to properly defend themselves. Court appointed lawyers just want to plea bargain their cases and collect their fees.
While the NFL is a court, players are judged for their real/ or accused actions. IMO, the commissioner needs to appoint a disciplinary review board. They would look at each case and publicly recommend a course of corrective action. Members of the board would include representatives from the players union, the owners, and an independent source that owes no allegiance to the league. Final sentencing, if necessary, would still reside with the Commissioner .
No one should be judged in the media or in the lunch room at work. Even State and Federal Judges presume an accused is guilty simply because the person has been charged with a crime. Yes, most of the people that appear before them are low gutter filth, but that 1 to 2 % who are really innocent are getting bundled with rest. Allow all of the facts to be presented, reviewed, and judged by laws and/or regulations. Presided over by unbiased honest people whose sole job is learn the truth, not to increase tv ratings. [twocents]
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OlHoss1884
10 years ago

So if it was a big lie that got him into trouble in the first place the guy is SOL with you just because he was accused?

The Peterson and Rice cases were one thing because the evidence was more or less available from the start of the accusations but in many cases it is not and accusations fly long before any evidence one way or the other is available.

Someone accuses your player of assault or some other crime and you cut his ass then its found out two or three weeks or more later that the entire thing was made up and you already judged the guy simply because he was accused. Nice.

Originally Posted by: sschind 



If I made it sound that way, I wasn't clear. I am saying that in the NFL, since it's a private organization, the burden of proof isn't the same, and you don't have the same right of due process.

It isn't presumption of guilt, but if you got arrested, your story better hold water.



"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" --Albert Einstein
Zero2Cool
10 years ago
One problem with this suspend now, ask questions later deal with these cases made public so quickly is this. All a woman has to do is call the cops and claim the guy hit her and he is going to jail. Period. They sort things out later. If found innocent or case is dropped, the association of guilt is already placed on the guy. This opens him up for MORE false accusations. I think the negative trend is apparent.

As I said, this goes for anyone, not just celebrities.

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.
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TheKanataThrilla (20h) : Exactly buck...Washington came up with the ball. It is just a shitty coincidence one week later
buckeyepackfan (20h) : I forgot, they corrected the call a week later. Lol btw HAPPY BIRTHDAY dhazer!
buckeyepackfan (20h) : That brings up the question, why wasn't Nixon down by contact? I think that was the point Kanata was making.
buckeyepackfan (21h) : Turnovers rule, win the turnover battle, win the game.
packerfanoutwest (21h) : well, he was
TheKanataThrilla (21h) : Eagles down by contact on the fumble....fuck you NFL
Mucky Tundra (21h) : I think this games over
beast (22h) : Eagles sure get a lot of fumbles on kickoffs
Mucky Tundra (22h) : This game looks too big for Washington
packerfanoutwest (26-Jan) : that being said, The Ravens are the Browns
packerfanoutwest (26-Jan) : Browns, Dolphins have longest AFC Championship droughts
packerfanoutwest (26-Jan) : As of today, Cowboys have longest NFC Championship drought,
beast (26-Jan) : Someone pointed out, with Raiders hiring Carroll, the division games between Carroll and Jim Harbaugh are back on (who can whine more games)
beast (26-Jan) : I'm confused, Pete Carroll and Brian Schottenheimer? When Todd Monken, Joe Brady, Kellen Moore, Kliff Kingsbury and Zac Robinson are availab
Zero2Cool (25-Jan) : Any reason I'm catching a shot here about my intelligence?
Martha Careful (25-Jan) : thank you Mucky for sticking up for me
Martha Careful (25-Jan) : some of those people are smarter than you zero. However Pete Carroll is not
Mucky Tundra (24-Jan) : Rude!
beast (24-Jan) : Martha? 😋
Zero2Cool (24-Jan) : Raiders hired someone from the elderly home.
dfosterf (24-Jan) : I'm going with a combination of the two.
beast (24-Jan) : Either the Cowboys have no idea what they're doing, or they're targeting their former OC, currently the Eagles OC
Zero2Cool (23-Jan) : Fake news. Cowboys say no
Zero2Cool (23-Jan) : Mystery candidate in the Cowboys head coaching search believed to be Packers ST Coordinator Rich Bisaccia.
beast (23-Jan) : Also why do both NYC teams have absolutely horrible OL for over a decade?
beast (23-Jan) : I wonder why the Jets always hire defensive coaches to be head coach
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Still HC positions available out there. I wonder if Hafley pops up for one
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Trent Baalke is out as the Jaguars GM.
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Jeff Hafley would have been a better choice, fortunately they don't know that. Someone will figure that out next off season
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Aaron Glenn Planning To Take Jets HC Job
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Martha- C'est mon boulot! 😁
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Thank you
wpr (22-Jan) : Z, glad you are feeling better.
wpr (22-Jan) : My son and D-I-L work for UM. It's a way to pick on them.
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Thank you. I rarely get sick, and even more rarely sick to the point I can't work.
wpr (22-Jan) : Beast- back to yesterday, I CAN say OSU your have been Michigan IF the odds of making the playoffs were more urgent.
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Glad to hear you are feeling a bit better.
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : I've been near death ill last several days, finally feel less dead and site issues.
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : It is a big deal. This host is having issues. It's frustrating.
Martha Careful (22-Jan) : just kidding...it was down
Martha Careful (22-Jan) : you were blocked yesterday, due to a a recalcitrant demeanor yesterday in the penalty box for a recalcitrant demeanor
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Was that site shutdown on your end or mine? No big deal, just curious
beast (21-Jan) : That way teams like Indiana and SMU don't make the conference championships by simply avoiding all the other good teams in their own confere
beast (21-Jan) : Also, with these "Super Conferences" instead of a single conference champion, have 4 teams make a Conference playoffs.
beast (21-Jan) : Also in college football, is a bye week a good or bad thing?
Martha Careful (21-Jan) : The tournament format was fine. Seeding could use some work.
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