Zero2Cool
10 years ago

Your union conveyed to the league that due process for players is not a luxury, it’s a rightWhile the league currently has great concern for its brand, fairness and justice for our members is more important. For us, the starting point for these discussions must be the desire to agree upon a fair personal conduct policy and domestic violence rules from a standpoint of prevention and education. We will not accept a world where all players are viewed as perpetrators first and husbands, fathers, sons and brothers second.

DeMaurice Smith to executive committee and player representative wrote:



I think this is an excellent point. Erik Walden, for instance, his case was dismissed and still I believe he received a single or double game suspension. Why?

I still say there should be some legal precedent that states these cases (for anyone) cannot be publicized until conclusion to avoid guilty by association stigma.

Primary example for Packers fans is the type of cases like Mark Chmura's from many years ago. We will NEVER assume the male is innocent in those cases, never. Even if the court finds the defendant innocent, he is guilty by association. Granted, in Chmura's case, he's an idiot for even being in that position in the first place, but surely you get the principle being illustrated here.
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Pack93z
10 years ago
I agree to a point, they are afforded Due Process in the court system and with regards to contracts, should be afforded an extension of that right. But the NFL and its teams certainly have the right to deactivate a player when being charged with a crime, they are being paid yet and awaiting for the legal process to take its course. Ala Peterson, Hardy and others.

As far as not making it public, hell the NFL would love for it to be that way. But in today's saturated media market and arrests being of public record, there is no way a player is going to be afforded the luxury of not having it reported. It is some of the trade off in terms of the gig.. many always note that other labor laws and such don't apply to pro athletes, well in this regard it works against them.

Now, the point if the player is found innocent or the charges are dismissed, I concur no further action should be taken away from the player. In cases like AP and Hardy, they would have served a penalty of sorts in terms of not playing.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
10 years ago
The other factor that this inactive list type arrangement for players that are charged is that it will also serve as a penalty to the clubs for signing players with a propensity to get into legal trouble. Aldon Smith for instance would have an more of an incentive to keep his nose clean and change his behavior. Less teams are going to be willing to sign a player whom may not be able to play a full year because his ability to stay out of legal trouble isn't high.

In summary.. the NFL should have the ability not to have a player in action if he is "charged" with a crime above a misdemeanor. They should be entitled to their pay however, unless the club just wants to part ways with the player, IE a depth player that so many times we see cut on the arrest.

But in the end, the commissioner should have never been nor should be the sole deciding factor in the punishment of player in the personal conduct.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
10 years ago

I think this is an excellent point. Erik Walden, for instance, his case was dismissed and still I believe he received a single or double game suspension. Why?

I still say there should be some legal precedent that states these cases (for anyone) cannot be publicized until conclusion to avoid guilty by association stigma.

Primary example for Packers fans is the type of cases like Mark Chmura's from many years ago. We will NEVER assume the male is innocent in those cases, never. Even if the court finds the defendant innocent, he is guilty by association. Granted, in Chmura's case, he's an idiot for even being in that position in the first place, but surely you get the principle being illustrated here.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



It is not just big name, big money people. If I were to give a 15 yo a ride to her home in a rain storm and she accuses me of wrong doing, I would be considered guilty by the public. Even if it is proven in court that she lied or worse yet that the case was dismissed without a trial my clients would leave. I have seen it happen with a local restaurant owner, a local attorney and in other towns with other men. They don't have to own a business to be labeled lecherous.
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texaspackerbacker
10 years ago
This is like the old "morals clause" that show business people had. It's not just the NFL, it's society in general - the people - that look at accused criminals that way, and the result for the employer/team/movie studio/whatever is the celebrity or player is less popular/less of a draw for selling tickets/an embarrassment for the employer. And face it, ever since O.J. and probably before that, we all know a LOT of accused criminals get off on technicalities.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
OlHoss1884
10 years ago
The NFL is not a democracy. Someone who has been given the privilege of playing in it has the obligation to abide by its code of behavior.

Think of NFL discipline like the Navy's Captains Mast. You may not be found guilty by the standards of the legal system, but if your actions bring disrepute on the Navy you are up shit creek.

The fact is, if I were a coach/GM/owner and one of my players was accused of something, I would call him in to explain himself and I don't need a jury to decide whether I want that guy on my team. Because unless it's a case of mistaken identity (like the recent Lynch case) I don't want the stink on my team's reputation, regardless of whether a slick lawyer or fat payoff got him out of trouble.

Maybe a jury decides that beating a 4 year old with a branch isn't legally child abuse but that a-hole never plays on my team again.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" --Albert Einstein
sschind
10 years ago

The NFL is not a democracy. Someone who has been given the privilege of playing in it has the obligation to abide by its code of behavior.

Think of NFL discipline like the Navy's Captains Mast. You may not be found guilty by the standards of the legal system, but if your actions bring disrepute on the Navy you are up sh*t creek.

The fact is, if I were a coach/GM/owner and one of my players was accused of something, I would call him in to explain himself and I don't need a jury to decide whether I want that guy on my team. Because unless it's a case of mistaken identity (like the recent Lynch case) I don't want the stink on my team's reputation, regardless of whether a slick lawyer or fat payoff got him out of trouble.

Maybe a jury decides that beating a 4 year old with a branch isn't legally child abuse but that a-hole never plays on my team again.

Originally Posted by: OlHoss1884 



So if it was a big lie that got him into trouble in the first place the guy is SOL with you just because he was accused?

The Peterson and Rice cases were one thing because the evidence was more or less available from the start of the accusations but in many cases it is not and accusations fly long before any evidence one way or the other is available.

Someone accuses your player of assault or some other crime and you cut his ass then its found out two or three weeks or more later that the entire thing was made up and you already judged the guy simply because he was accused. Nice.

Smokey
10 years ago
Many believe that people are innocent until proven guilty and that the courts and businesses operate in this most fair manner. It is a shock when they discover that it is really the other way around. Many a poor man has gone to prison or lost a job because they could not afford to properly defend themselves. Court appointed lawyers just want to plea bargain their cases and collect their fees.
While the NFL is a court, players are judged for their real/ or accused actions. IMO, the commissioner needs to appoint a disciplinary review board. They would look at each case and publicly recommend a course of corrective action. Members of the board would include representatives from the players union, the owners, and an independent source that owes no allegiance to the league. Final sentencing, if necessary, would still reside with the Commissioner .
No one should be judged in the media or in the lunch room at work. Even State and Federal Judges presume an accused is guilty simply because the person has been charged with a crime. Yes, most of the people that appear before them are low gutter filth, but that 1 to 2 % who are really innocent are getting bundled with rest. Allow all of the facts to be presented, reviewed, and judged by laws and/or regulations. Presided over by unbiased honest people whose sole job is learn the truth, not to increase tv ratings. [twocents]
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OlHoss1884
10 years ago

So if it was a big lie that got him into trouble in the first place the guy is SOL with you just because he was accused?

The Peterson and Rice cases were one thing because the evidence was more or less available from the start of the accusations but in many cases it is not and accusations fly long before any evidence one way or the other is available.

Someone accuses your player of assault or some other crime and you cut his ass then its found out two or three weeks or more later that the entire thing was made up and you already judged the guy simply because he was accused. Nice.

Originally Posted by: sschind 



If I made it sound that way, I wasn't clear. I am saying that in the NFL, since it's a private organization, the burden of proof isn't the same, and you don't have the same right of due process.

It isn't presumption of guilt, but if you got arrested, your story better hold water.



"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" --Albert Einstein
Zero2Cool
10 years ago
One problem with this suspend now, ask questions later deal with these cases made public so quickly is this. All a woman has to do is call the cops and claim the guy hit her and he is going to jail. Period. They sort things out later. If found innocent or case is dropped, the association of guilt is already placed on the guy. This opens him up for MORE false accusations. I think the negative trend is apparent.

As I said, this goes for anyone, not just celebrities.

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.
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Fan Shout
Mucky Tundra (9h) : Oh I know about Jacobs, I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to mimic Zero lol
buckeyepackfan (9h) : Jacobs was just sat down, Watson re-injured that knee that kept him out 1 game earlier
buckeyepackfan (9h) : I needed .14 that's. .14 points for the whole 4th quarter to win and go to the SB. Lol
Mucky Tundra (9h) : Jacobs gonna be OK???
Zero2Cool (9h) : Watson gonna be OK???
packerfanoutwest (13h) : Inactives tonight for the Pack: Alexander- knee Bullard - ankle Williams - quad Walker -ankle Monk Heath
packerfanoutwest (13h) : No Jaire, but hopefully the front 7 destroys the line of scrimmage & forces Rattler into a few passes to McKinney.
packerfanoutwest (13h) : minny could be #1 seed and the Lions #5 seed
Zero2Cool (16h) : We'd have same Division and Conference records. Strength of schedule we edge them
Zero2Cool (16h) : I just checked. What tie breaker?
bboystyle (16h) : yes its possible but unlikely. If we do get the 5th, we face the NFCS winner
Zero2Cool (16h) : Ahh, ok.
bboystyle (16h) : yes due to tie breaker
Zero2Cool (16h) : I mean, unlikely, yes, but mathematically, 5th is possible by what I'm reading.
Zero2Cool (16h) : If Vikings lose out, Packers win out, Packers get 5th, right?
bboystyle (16h) : Minny isnt going to lose out so 5th seed is out of the equation. We are playing for the 6th or 7th seed which makes no difference
Mucky Tundra (17h) : beast, the ad revenue goes to the broadcast company but they gotta pay to air the game on their channel/network
beast (17h) : If we win tonight the game is still relative in terms of 5th, 6th or 7th seed... win and it's 5th or 6th, lose and it's 6th or 7th
beast (17h) : Mucky, I thought the ad revenue went to the broadcasting companies or the NFL, at least not directly
Zero2Cool (18h) : I think the revenue share is moot, isn't it? That's the CBA an Salary Cap handling that.
bboystyle (18h) : i mean game becomes irrelevant if we win tonight. Just a game where we are trying to play spoilers to Vikings chance at the #1 seed
Mucky Tundra (18h) : beast, I would guess ad revenue from more eyes watching tv
Zero2Cool (18h) : I would think it would hurt the home team because people would have to cancel last minute maybe? i dunno
beast (18h) : I agree that it's BS for fans planning on going to the game. But how does it bring in more money? I'm guessing indirectly?
packerfanoutwest (19h) : bs on flexing the game....they do it for the $$league$$, not the hometown fans
Zero2Cool (19h) : I see what you did there Mucky
Zero2Cool (19h) : dammit. 3:25pm
Zero2Cool (19h) : Packers Vikings flexed to 3:35pm
Mucky Tundra (19h) : Upon receiving the news about Luke Musgrave, I immediately fell to the ground
Mucky Tundra (20h) : Yeah baby!
Zero2Cool (20h) : LUKE MUSGRAVE PLAYING TONIGHT~!~~~~WOWHOAAOHAOAA yah
Zero2Cool (21h) : I wanna kill new QB's ... blitz the crap out of them.
beast (21h) : Barry seemed to get too conservative against new QBs, Hafley doesn't have that issue
Zero2Cool (22h) : However, we seem to struggle vs new QB's
Zero2Cool (22h) : Should be moot point, cuz Packers should win tonight.
packerfanoutwest (22h) : ok I stand corrected
Zero2Cool (22h) : Ok, yes, you are right. I see that now how they get 7th
Zero2Cool (22h) : 5th - Packers win out, Vikings lose out. Maybe?
beast (22h) : Saying no to the 6th lock.
beast (22h) : No, with the Commanders beating the Eagles, Packers could have a good chance of 6th or 7th unless the win out
Zero2Cool (22h) : I think if Packers win, they are locked 6th with chance for 5th.
beast (22h) : But it doesn't matter, as the Packers win surely win one of their remaining games
beast (22h) : This is not complex, just someone doesn't want to believe reality
beast (22h) : We already have told you... if Packers lose all their games (they won't, but if they did), and Buccaneers and Falcons win all theirs
Zero2Cool (22h) : I posted it in that Packers and 1 seed thread
Zero2Cool (22h) : I literally just said it.
packerfanoutwest (22h) : show us a scenario where Pack don't get in? bet you can't
Zero2Cool (22h) : Falcons, Buccaneers would need to win final two games.
Zero2Cool (22h) : Yes, if they win one of three, they are lock. If they lose out, they can be eliminated.
packerfanoutwest (23h) : as I just said,,gtheyh are in no matter what
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