bozz_2006
16 years ago
from my perception, I don't necessarily place the blame for the poor play of our linebackers on moss's shoulders. sanders' scheme called for several different sets of responsibilities. corners covered man-on. safeties freelanced. d-line was committed to gap control AND pass rush (very stupid) while linebackers were in a read-think-react position, necessitated because of the gap-control responsibility of the d-line. d-line gap responsibility made it necessary for teh linebackers to also have gap-control responsibilities, taking away their ability to react... putting them half a step behind the play all the time in order to maintain their gap responsibilities. it's hard to do well if you're asked to do it while giving the other guy a head start. at this level of competition, that is asking too much. THAT was sanders' problem if you ask me. if you ask me, gap responsibilities were also the reason for his propensity to not blitz. that made our defense very rigid, very predictable, and set them up to fail. I don't care how cerebral an NFL player is. He is an animal and if ask him to think while he's playing, you're smothering his instincts....


wow, i'm worked up now. gotta cool off. lol
UserPostedImage
dfosterf
16 years ago

. I just want to know who to start complaining about, I guess. [-(

"Packnic" wrote:



Here I will make it easy... just blame the linebackers for everything.. :lol:

"pack93z" wrote:



Tell me of this Winston Moss.......

"dfosterf" wrote:



I will stand firm.. I don't see the merits based on performance of his group or individual players.. damn.. broke my vow.. carry on. :lol:

"pack93z" wrote:




If part of the problem was a philosophical coaching difference between Bates/Sanders and Moss... would it not be logical that maybe Moss couldn't coach up to his potential due to the rigid strains of the Bates Sanders Scheme?

I just think that if several people in the league are interested in Moss's services, then there must be something there. Maybe the riff between the defensive coaches came about because Moss didn't feel like his players were being used to the max of their potential??

Maybe Moss has a plan.

Maybe?

"dfosterf" wrote:



I have no way to know if I should agree or disagree. I don't even know if Moss was the one dictating a Bates scheme. Sanders just as easily could have been "stuck" with it, no? More trying times...maybe I just need to know who it is? I know I am not alone with this feeling of pure trepidation...
ILikeThePackers39
16 years ago
Hmm... I'm reading what I wrote, and I'm coming off as very anti-Moss, which isn't what I intend. I'm more concerned that were aren't, in fact, being gutsy enough - then again, perhaps Moss has a completely different vision of this defense?

One thing, though: If (and it's a big "if", I know this) we do end up bringing in 2-3 studs on D via FA and the draft, perhaps it won't matter that we didn't shake the snow globe all to hell. As much as I don't like Sanders' version of this scheme, it worked fine when we had the horses to run it.

Deep breath. Wait and see. Repeat.
blank
bozz_2006
16 years ago
ILTP, the implication, and the rumblings that i've heard are that several coaches were quite critical of Sanders' scheme and vocal in its shortcomings. From what I understand, Moss was the leader of this faction.
UserPostedImage
Packnic
16 years ago

ILTP, the implication, and the rumblings that i've heard are that several coaches were quite critical of Sanders' scheme and vocal in its shortcomings. From what I understand, Moss was the leader of this faction.

"bozz_2006" wrote:




yeah i guess i should have clarified that in my post.

but like dfosterf stated... who knows. all we know is rumors right now.

there could be no riff between coaches.

Moss could be the St Louis coach

We know nothing... i was just trying to defend Moss a little bit.
blank
djcubez
16 years ago
All in all I like the move. It's clear that McCarthy has faith in our offense, any why not? It's been stellar. But defense was a huge problem. So even if we get a minor improvement over Sanders with a new DC a lot of our 6 points or less losses would turn into wins. That's huge.

Also, if you look at our roster we have players with specific strengths and weaknesses. Chillar in pass coverage, Poppinga in stopping the run. What we need is a creative coordinator like one of the Ryan brothers (I know they're not available) that will utilize these special talents, and create defensive packages for every specific game to take teams off guard. That's what playing defense in the NFL is about now. Throwing the offense off with different looks and playing to your strengths. Sanders didn't do that very well.
ILikeThePackers39
16 years ago

ILTP, the implication, and the rumblings that i've heard are that several coaches were quite critical of Sanders' scheme and vocal in its shortcomings. From what I understand, Moss was the leader of this faction.

"bozz_2006" wrote:




Thanks - I gathered that, but it never hurts to have more clarification. I guess the thing that's bugging me (and it's probably totally irrational) is that I didn't see Washington mentioned as one of the coaches that sided w/ Sanders, so his firing confuses me. I'm ready to accept that Moss might well have a line on how to make the base scheme more flexible and aggressive, but it sucks to lose a good CBs coach, especially as well as those guys showed this year.

But it's all conjecture and hand-wringing at this point, until we get some concrete news about what's really going to happen in '09. So what I really need to do is calm the hell down and let stuff play out, rather than getting freaked out prematurely. It's a goal.
blank
Pack93z
16 years ago
I am not anti-Moss, although I can see how some may completely believe that I am.. my point and only point, is scheme or not, the individual play of the linebackers themselves, each of singularly.. has not improved.

I find it convenient to dump that upon the scheme or the DC.. the simple fact, when looking at how these guys played in space, in traffic and the speed in which they react to plays, is more telling of poor individual coaching than scheme.

When in the final weeks, the few times Hawk had open lanes to the ball carrier.. he didn't attack.. there isn't a scheme out there that would cause Hawk to sit back in the hole and wait for the play to come to him..

There isn't a scheme in the world that would cause Poppinga to time after time over run a play in space and not be coached up on how to attack properly in open space and make a yard saving tackle.

There isn't a scheme issue when you see our linebackers time and time again losing one on one battles in the trenches.. that comes to coaching.. there isn't a scheme out there that won't put the backers in traffic and having to fight off blocks.. how can the scheme be held responsible for lack of fundamentals.

I realize that players aren't going to win every battle and sometimes the other team makes a play, but good grief we should win a share of them.

Moss may make a hell of a DC... and maybe he was holding back because he didn't agree with the scheme or whatnot.. but is that a reason for poor fundamental play from his group.

Packnic.. if he is the choice, I will back his play and see what happens, but if you suggest he was tanking it or giving it less than 100% and that is somehow deemed acceptable then I would be disappointed in him as a coach, teacher and leader for this defense.

A ton of the stuff I read about Moss is so positive and there are some really good comments that come his way.. I guess I expect the level of play from his position group to be more than it has shown to date.

There I broke my vow of silence big time on the backer talk and criticism of Moss.. my apologizes in advance.. I just don't see the production to match the praise.. and that just pisses me off to the ninth.. boy I get wound up tighter than a popcorn fart on this topic.. sorry again..
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
bozz_2006
16 years ago
I don't care what the level of "individual coaching" is, if you ask a player to "decide" what he's going to do during the play, he's going to fall behind. THAT is on the man who designs the scheme. HE is the one that asks them to play that way. Sanders asks his linebackers to think during the play. that doesn't work
UserPostedImage
dfosterf
16 years ago
I am not anti-Moss, either. I know alot of people think highly of him, obviously...

Frankly, regardless of who gets that job, he is destined to succeed or fail dependent mostly on the improvement or lack of improvement of the defensive line. That utter failure just cost a bunch of coaches their jobs, and will do the exact same thing if there is a repeat of it...4-3, 3-4, wildcat d... what EVER---

That twinkie eating fat fu## has until the end of training camp. Period.

This is getting serious, young Mr. Harrell.
Fan Shout
dfosterf (26-Jun) : I think it would be great to have someone like Tom Grossi or Andy Herman on the Board of Directors so he/they could inform us
dfosterf (26-Jun) : Fair enough, WPR. Thing is, I have been a long time advocate to at least have some inkling of the dynamics within the board.
wpr (26-Jun) : 1st world owners/stockholders problems dfosterf.
Martha Careful (25-Jun) : I would have otherwise admirably served
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Also, no more provision for a write-in candidate, so Martha is off the table at least for this year
dfosterf (25-Jun) : You do have to interpret the boring fine print, but all stockholders all see he is on the ballot
dfosterf (25-Jun) : It also says he is subject to another ballot in 2028. I recall nothing of this nature with Murphy
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Ed Policy is on my ballot subject to me penciling him in as a no.
dfosterf (25-Jun) : I thought it used to be we voted for the whatever they called the 45, and then they voted for the seven, and then they voted for Mark Murphy
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Because I was too lazy to change my address, I haven't voted fot years until this year
dfosterf (25-Jun) : of the folks that run this team. I do not recall Mark Murphy being subject to our vote.
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Ed Policy yay or nay is on the pre-approved ballot that we always approve because we are uninformed and lazy, along with all the rest
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Weird question. Very esoteric. For stockholders. Also lengthy. Sorry. Offseason.
Zero2Cool (25-Jun) : Maybe wicked wind chill made it worse?
Mucky Tundra (25-Jun) : And then he signs with Cleveland in the offseason
Mucky Tundra (25-Jun) : @SharpFootball WR Diontae Johnson just admitted he refused to enter a game in 41° weather last year in Baltimore because he felt “ice cold”
Zero2Cool (24-Jun) : Yawn. Rodgers says he is "pretty sure" this be final season.
Zero2Cool (23-Jun) : PFT claims Packers are having extension talks with Zach Tom, Quay Walker.
Mucky Tundra (20-Jun) : GB-Minnesota 2004 Wild Card game popped up on my YouTube page....UGH
beast (20-Jun) : Hmm 🤔 re-signing Walker before Tom? Sounds highly questionable to me.
Mucky Tundra (19-Jun) : One person on Twitter=cannon law
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : Well, to ONE person on Tweeter
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : According to Tweeter
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : Packers are working on extension for LT Walker they hope to have done before camp
dfosterf (18-Jun) : E4B landed at Andrews last night
dfosterf (18-Jun) : 101 in a 60
dfosterf (18-Jun) : FAFO
Zero2Cool (18-Jun) : one year $4m with incentives to make it up to $6m
dfosterf (18-Jun) : Or Lions
dfosterf (18-Jun) : Beats the hell out of a Vikings signing
Zero2Cool (18-Jun) : Baltimore Ravens now have signed former Packers CB Jaire Alexander.
dfosterf (14-Jun) : TWO magnificent strikes for touchdowns. Lose the pennstate semigeezer non nfl backup
dfosterf (14-Jun) : There was minicamp Thursday. My man Taylor Engersma threw
dfosterf (11-Jun) : There will be a mini camp practice Thursday.
Zero2Cool (11-Jun) : He's been sporting a ring for a while now. It's probably Madonna.
Martha Careful (10-Jun) : We only do the tea before whoopee, it relaxes me.
wpr (10-Jun) : That's awesome Martha.
Mucky Tundra (10-Jun) : How's the ayahuasca tea he makes, Martha?
Martha Careful (10-Jun) : Turns out he like older women
Martha Careful (10-Jun) : I wasn't supposed to say anything, but yes the word is out and we are happy 😂😂😂
Mucky Tundra (10-Jun) : I might be late on this but Aaron Rodgers is now married
Mucky Tundra (10-Jun) : Well he can always ask his brother for pointers
Zero2Cool (10-Jun) : Bo Melton taking some reps at CB as well as WR
Zero2Cool (10-Jun) : key transactions coming today at 3pm that will consume more cap in 2025
Zero2Cool (9-Jun) : Jaire played in just 34 of a possible 68 games since the start of the 2021 season
Zero2Cool (9-Jun) : reported, but not expected to practice
Zero2Cool (9-Jun) : Jenkins has REPORTED for mandatory camp
Zero2Cool (9-Jun) : I really thought he'd play for Packers.
buckeyepackfan (9-Jun) : Packers releasing Jaire Alexander.
Mucky Tundra (8-Jun) : (Context: he wants his defense to create turnovers)
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2025 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 7 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Thursday, Sep 11 @ 7:15 PM
COMMANDERS
Sunday, Sep 21 @ 12:00 PM
Browns
Sunday, Sep 28 @ 7:20 PM
Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 12 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Sunday, Oct 19 @ 3:25 PM
Cardinals
Sunday, Oct 26 @ 7:20 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 2 @ 12:00 PM
PANTHERS
Monday, Nov 10 @ 7:15 PM
EAGLES
Sunday, Nov 16 @ 12:00 PM
Giants
Sunday, Nov 23 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Thursday, Nov 27 @ 12:00 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 7 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Dec 14 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Friday, Dec 19 @ 11:00 PM
Bears
Friday, Dec 26 @ 11:00 PM
RAVENS
Saturday, Jan 3 @ 11:00 PM
Vikings
Recent Topics
25-Jun / Around The NFL / Martha Careful

23-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

20-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

20-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

20-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

18-Jun / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

16-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

15-Jun / Random Babble / Martha Careful

14-Jun / Around The NFL / beast

14-Jun / Community Welcome! / dfosterf

13-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

13-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / Adam

12-Jun / Random Babble / Martha Careful

12-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

12-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.