steveishere
11 years ago

I get that Steve but no matter who good he is today, Shields still wasn't a part of the draft. As a rookie he still didn't have the same expectations. Not his, not from the organization not from the fans as a #1 or #2 draft pick faces.

There is no post, there is no newspaper story anywhere that shows how many UD college free agents that didn't make it with any team.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



They are part of the draft class though, they have the same rookie season as draft picks, they went to the same combine and pro day, they did the same interviews and were scouted along side the same players that got drafted. If they aren't part of the draft then they are FAs but we don't ever use FA so I guess they aren't that either.
buckeyepackfan
11 years ago

UHHHMMMM, Yes it does. The draft is 7 rounds. The teams can sign other players after ward but the draft itself is only 7 rounds long.

If yu don't think so and want to put a spin on it then look here . This is a link to the NFL's website. I picked the TE just to make it easy. they list every single TE that was DRAFTED and the team that selected them. Now look at the list of names below those that were drafted. Do you see Colt Lyerla? If he is apart of the draft why doesn't the NFL list the Packers as being the team that signed him? USFA's are not a part of the draft process.

No one is disputing Uncle Teddy has had good success with signing kids off the street but then the accountability level is a lot lower for them isn't it? No one is going to be upset if 90-95% of them don't pan out. Everyone is disappointed or upset if a #1 is a bust. Heck fans are still mad about Tony Mandarich and Bruce Clark.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



No one is disputing the class of 2012 is not one of Ted's best, but does this make the case(that some here are trying to make), that Ted Thompson is holding The Packers back?

Take out the word "draft", make it the class of 2012, does that make it any better?

People can be mad all they want, bottom line, these are the guys who made the team and have stayed, fans can either support them or not, me for one will support them.
I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!
musccy
11 years ago

No one is disputing the class of 2012 is not one of Ted's best, but does this make the case(that some here are trying to make), that Ted Thompson is holding The Packers back?

Take out the word "draft", make it the class of 2012, does that make it any better?

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan 



You're still wasting money, and opportunities at conceivably the best access to the best quality picks not only that you have, but that you're blocking other teams from getting.

Lets say Ha Ha pans out. The Eagles wanted him, traded back, to get Marcus Smith who many (especially Philly media, trust me!) consider to be a reach and potential bust. The Packers not only acquired talent, but they prevented that talent from going to a conference rival for years to come.

Flip side of that, lets say Datone is marginal, maybe even a bust. Those are wasted seasons and dollars not going towards extending Cobb, or trying to find replacements for your mistake with D. Jones. (just using Jones as an example, not saying I expect him to be a bust).

There are repercussions for your high draft picks not working. They're not damning to a franchise especially if you still find the Shields, Drivers, and Boykins later on, but the misses also aren't insignificant.
+2
buckeyepackfan
11 years ago

You're still wasting money, and opportunities at conceivably the best access to the best quality picks not only that you have, but that you're blocking other teams from getting.

Lets say Ha Ha pans out. The Eagles wanted him, traded back, to get Marcus Smith who many (especially Philly media, trust me!) consider to be a reach and potential bust. The Packers not only acquired talent, but they prevented that talent from going to a conference rival for years to come.

Flip side of that, lets say Datone is marginal, maybe even a bust. Those are wasted seasons and dollars not going towards extending Cobb, or trying to find replacements for your mistake with D. Jones. (just using Jones as an example, not saying I expect him to be a bust).

There are repercussions for your high draft picks not working. They're not damning to a franchise especially if you still find the Shields, Drivers, and Boykins later on, but the misses also aren't insignificant.

Originally Posted by: musccy 



Everybody knows it's a crapshoot, thankfully the wasting of money is a lot less these days, I would be much more concerned if Ted had 3 or 4 drafts like this.

What is the big saying on draft day? TRUST YOUR BOARD.

No one can predict injuries.


From what I can tell Ted and Co. are just as, or better prepared, year after year, then any other Organization.

Will be interesting to look at the same charts using 2012 and 2013, just might make a little difference.
I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!
musccy
11 years ago

Everybody knows it's a crapshoot, thankfully the wasting of money is a lot less these days, I would be much more concerned if Ted had 3 or 4 drafts like this.

What is the big saying on draft day? TRUST YOUR BOARD.

No one can predict injuries.


From what I can tell Ted and Co. are just as, or better prepared, year after year, then any other Organization.

Will be interesting to look at the same charts using 2012 and 2013, just might make a little difference.

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan 



I completely get all of that, that's why the more draft picks the better. Except for the front 7 of the D and a few random yearly issues (C this year, QB last year, RB in previous years) Ted has done a remarkable job managing the cap and building strong teams. I like him as our GM.

That said, the Packers have had some misses (for various reasons) with their higher picks like Harrell, Worthy, so far Datone and Sherrod, arguably Perry. I don't think you can completely ignore those issues because there are consequences to top picks not panning out.
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
11 years ago

No one is disputing the class of 2012 is not one of Ted's best, but does this make the case(that some here are trying to make), that Ted Thompson is holding The Packers back?

Take out the word "draft", make it the class of 2012, does that make it any better?

People can be mad all they want, bottom line, these are the guys who made the team and have stayed, fans can either support them or not, me for one will support them.

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan 



I agree with your comment if you look at the class of 2012 as a whole, they did a better job but that is not what this topic was originally about. The draft class as you have agreed with was a poor job by Ted and Co. It may not all be Ted's "fault". I don't know if anyone has said that.

Perhaps the talent in 2012 was a little poorer than other years. A quick glace shows that 5 or the first 11 have been in the Pro Bowl (Which is not an acid test of greatness but it is quick and easy.) Then 7 more player in all the rest of the draft. 3 of them in the 6th round. One of those was S-Justin Bethel. GB did need a S in 2012 and took McMillian in the 4th. I am not advocating that Ted screwed up because he didn't grab Bethel a couple of rounds earlier. Maybe they thought Jerron faced better competition or that he was a more complete player. I certain am not saying that GB should have taken Bethel in the 2nd or 3rd round simply because he made it to the PB.

I don't think most of us are even "mad" to use your word. Just saying it was a lousy draft year two years in a row. And I also said if you are going to be myopic like Ted is and not acquire the higher quality veteran FAs then he has to be better at drafting than everyone else. Evey other year except for 2011 and 2012 he may well have been. But in 2011 and 2012 he definitely was not.


Everybody knows it's a crapshoot, thankfully the wasting of money is a lot less these days, I would be much more concerned if Ted had 3 or 4 drafts like this.

What is the big saying on draft day? TRUST YOUR BOARD.

No one can predict injuries.


From what I can tell Ted and Co. are just as, or better prepared, year after year, then any other Organization.

Will be interesting to look at the same charts using 2012 and 2013, just might make a little difference.

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan 



Don't say it is a crapshoot. That is just not even close to being true at all. Shooting craps, unless you have loaded dice is all chance and no skill. No offense to those who blow on their dice and have their best girl give them a kiss and hold the hand 7.55 degrees to the right or left when they release the dice and so on.

Uncle Teddy and his whole team spend years scouting the same players. In 2012 they knew Nick Perry and Jerel Worthy as if they were their own sons. They didn't start looking at some film in January 2012. The advance scouts watched those guys and all the others when they first stepped on to campus around the country. They kickit up a notch and pull out film and notes on the guys when they finally announce they are entering the draft but by Jan 2012 Uncle Teddy's team saw Jerel 1000 times in one form or another.

There was little chance. Injuries do happen. Sherrod getting his leg broke was not expected but it was certainly quantified. A certain percent of linemen are injured ever single year in the NFL. It could have just as easily someone from New Orleans or AZ. But Teddy couldn't be shocked and ask "how could we have known"? Those things happen and he must expect and plan for them to happen to him and his team. Other injuries are more certain. Justin Harrell for example. He came out of college with a history of ailments. You can't take someone like that in the first ans say that you are surprised he has issues. You can't say, well if he was healthy he would have been a top 10 pick. The reason he didn't go that high was because he was not healthy and he did have issues. HEY! I could be a top 10 pick if I wasn't old, fat, short and in general lacking in any talent what so ever so take me in the 7th round. What a bargain!




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+1
nerdmann
11 years ago
This whole thread is bullshit.

1: It is now harder to make the team than it was Ted's first few years, because he's got us already stocked.

2: Most of these guys were impacted by injuries.

Talk shit all you want about Ted, but he's a top 3 GM.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
+2
buckeyepackfan
11 years ago

I agree with your comment if you look at the class of 2012 as a whole, they did a better job but that is not what this topic was originally about. The draft class as you have agreed with was a poor job by Ted and Co. It may not all be Ted's "fault". I don't know if anyone has said that.

Perhaps the talent in 2012 was a little poorer than other years. A quick glace shows that 5 or the first 11 have been in the Pro Bowl (Which is not an acid test of greatness but it is quick and easy.) Then 7 more player in all the rest of the draft. 3 of them in the 6th round. One of those was S-Justin Bethel. GB did need a S in 2012 and took McMillian in the 4th. I am not advocating that Ted screwed up because he didn't grab Bethel a couple of rounds earlier. Maybe they thought Jerron faced better competition or that he was a more complete player. I certain am not saying that GB should have taken Bethel in the 2nd or 3rd round simply because he made it to the PB.

I don't think most of us are even "mad" to use your word. Just saying it was a lousy draft year two years in a row. And I also said if you are going to be myopic like Ted is and not acquire the higher quality veteran FAs then he has to be better at drafting than everyone else. Evey other year except for 2011 and 2012 he may well have been. But in 2011 and 2012 he definitely was not.


Don't say it is a crapshoot. That is just not even close to being true at all. Shooting craps, unless you have loaded dice is all chance and no skill. No offense to those who blow on their dice and have their best girl give them a kiss and hold the hand 7.55 degrees to the right or left when they release the dice and so on.

Uncle Teddy and his whole team spend years scouting the same players. In 2012 they knew Nick Perry and Jerel Worthy as if they were their own sons. They didn't start looking at some film in January 2012. The advance scouts watched those guys and all the others when they first stepped on to campus around the country. They kickit up a notch and pull out film and notes on the guys when they finally announce they are entering the draft but by Jan 2012 Uncle Teddy's team saw Jerel 1000 times in one form or another.

There was little chance. Injuries do happen. Sherrod getting his leg broke was not expected but it was certainly quantified. A certain percent of linemen are injured ever single year in the NFL. It could have just as easily someone from New Orleans or AZ. But Teddy couldn't be shocked and ask "how could we have known"? Those things happen and he must expect and plan for them to happen to him and his team. Other injuries are more certain. Justin Harrell for example. He came out of college with a history of ailments. You can't take someone like that in the first ans say that you are surprised he has issues. You can't say, well if he was healthy he would have been a top 10 pick. The reason he didn't go that high was because he was not healthy and he did have issues. HEY! I could be a top 10 pick if I wasn't old, fat, short and in general lacking in any talent what so ever so take me in the 7th round. What a bargain!




Originally Posted by: wpr 



First "mad" wasn't my word, it was in a post I replied to, can't even remember who it was said "some of us are still mad about Tony Madarich(I think) and somebody else.

Harrel did have a history of injuries, I was going to side note that in my original post, but figured everyone realized that when he was drafted.

You say tomato, I say tomata, on the draft.

[grin1]

Guys that joined the team in April of 2012 are all from the same year.
EDIT:
Doesn't matter how they got to Green Bay, it's what they do when they get there.


BTW, I've said it twice now, here's the 3rd time, The 2012 draft IS NOT going down as one of Ted Thompsons better drafts.

Do you think one sub-par draft is reason for some to get all bent out of shape and expect the rest of us to jump on board the "Get rid of Ted Thompson" bus?

Everybody has their opinion, I didn't like Ted so much when he took over, but he has shown that he knows how to rebuild a team and keep it well stocked over the last 9 years, so again, I'm not panicking over 1 sub par draft.
I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!
DoddPower
11 years ago

Hayward has also been the 1st CB off the bench in Nickle. The DB coach said he was running that dime rotation to get everyone reps it doesn't necessarily mean it's the actual rotation. Also, the interceptions aren't even half of what made Haywards rookie season great. The footballoutsiders thing that he mentioned takes into account things like defensive passes, tackling guys short of a 1st on 3rd and 4th down, and stuff like that. He defended 12 passes that year and was thrown at 74 times but only allowed like 44% of the passes to be completed. LOL don't talk to me about a possibly fluke INT meaning his season wasn't that good. He may never repeat that success but lets not try and downplay how good he was just because he had an injury ruined season.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2012/nfl-leaders-defeats-weeks-1-13 

This was an interesting bit from week 13 that year.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 



I can understand your point, but it still doesn't change mine. My point is that I don't think Hayward is as good as he appeared his rookie season. A few potentially lucky interceptions certainly do not completely define his season. But that one season also doesn't completely define his career to this point. I personally need to see more, and I haven't seen that since his rookie year. It could happen again, but my point is that I'm not sold yet. What he has done in the past really doesn't matter to me anymore. I care about what he will offer in the future. Just like Mike McCarthy, I also really care about availability. This also applies to players like Clay Mathews, Nick Perry, and Brian Bulaga, all of which I think are good players. But it really doesn't matter how good a player is if they are always or often on the bench during big games due to injury.

You can hang your hat on Hayward's rookie season all you want. It was awesome, and I loved watching him play. But I've moved on and am thinking about this season. Based on what I've read, he has not had a very good preseason. I haven't watched the practices myself, so I'm having to trust the opinions of others, but it is what it is. I have seen every televised snap of his NFL career. I hope he returns to form, but at this point, I am skeptical. As always in these scenarios, I would love to be wrong.
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
11 years ago

First "mad" wasn't my word, it was in a post I replied to, can't even remember who it was said "some of us are still mad about Tony Madarich(I think) and somebody else.

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan 



HAHA! I was only looking at your post not thinking about prior ones.
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