Chris Harper ready to muscle his way into Packers' receiver corps

sschind
100% (Exalted)
Senior Member

11 years ago

Dulak, you really won't care at all. The amount of talent they have added to the position is insanely good. ! I liked Jones too, but they look like they have made some significant upgrades.

Originally Posted by: play2win

I'm pretty confident that one of these guys will put up numbers as good or even better than Jones would have had he stayed here. In that respect I suppose it is safe to say we won't miss him. On the other hand I think those numbers will be because our #3 WR will put up those numbers regardless of who it is.

Where we will miss Jones is if Nelson or Cobb miss significant playing time. I feel that Jones could have stepped in and been our #2 or #1 WR without much question. I don't feel that any of the others will be able to do that this season.

Odds are that out of the 5 (Boykin, Harper and the rookies) one of them will eventually reach the level where I would have the confidence in him like I would have had in Jones this year but not this year and it is possible by that point we will be looking to replace our our #1 or #2 guys.

That means that if Cobb and Nelson remain healthy all season we will probably not miss James Jones but if either or God forbid both of them get hurt for any length of time our lack of experience at the position will definitely show.

The first argument will be that losing your #1 or #2 or even both at any position or for any team will hurt and that is true but it's not the losing the players that is the point here it is the replacing them. In my mind Jones would have been a better #1 or #2 WR replacement at this point therefore I still wish we had him.

I hope that we never get a chance to see if I am right, and if we do I hope like hell that I am wrong.

uffda udfa
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#62

You do realize you are arguing with yourself.

Nobody is saying a players 40 time isn't important, DURING THE DRAFT PERIOD.

You just stated "it will be interesting to see if Harper looks more like 4.38 or more toward his below average speed."

Maybe you don't even realize you switched from talking about a straight 40 time and started talking about "football speed".

There is a HUGE difference.

Every player I have ever seen interviewed says pretty much the same thing, they go to the combines and do all these drills to either improve their draft status or in some cases just to get noticed(I:E: Janis).

To a player they all say now that they either were drafted or invited to a camp, it doesn't matter how they got there, they are just glad they can finally put on the pads and show their perspective teams that they can play the game at a Profesional level.

Can someone tell me,(because I have never been able to attend an OTA or TC practice), how long do coaches spend on timing players in the 40 yd dash at these practices?

Originally Posted by: StarrMax1

Is there a HUGE difference? How do you know? Are you just guessing? If you read the quote from Trent Baalke the implication is sometimes the playing speed and 40 time don't square. I'm going to speculate that MOST of the time there is NOT a HUGE difference between playing speed and 40 time...only when there is a disparity does it cause an issue for the Niners.

Yes during the draft it is imperative. What was I lamenting that drew all this ire? The fact that we DRAFTED two skill position guys in the first 3 rounds who had below average speed when guys with much better speed were there. I hailed Lyerla's addition as well as Janis...those two both have great measurables. I hope they can play... We don't know if Adams and Rodgers can play but we do know they aren't fast. We don't know if Lyerla or Janis can play but we know they are fast. So, we have 4 total players there... Both pairs are in the same boat in that we don't know if they can play at the NFL level and be successful. One pair is slow by measurables....the other is not. I like the idea of Lyerla and Janis better than Adams and Rodgers. Will be interesting to see if a 7th rounder and UDFA can outperform a 2nd and 3rd rounder.

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

texaspackerbacker
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#63

I don't know why we need 5 mediocre tight ends, when we should bring in a hammerhead fullback not named John Kuhn just to block for the three headed monster named Lacy/Starks/Harris.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT

I didn't say that would be my choice, but I just have a hunch that Ted will keep Taylor again and probably give Bostick another year, along with Quarless. I said "up to" five - that would include 1 or 2 from among Rodgers, Lyerla, and Stoneburner. Ted seems to prefer TEs to WRs - maybe for special teams, I don't know.

If it was me, I'd use the new center as a long snapper to save a roster spot, get by with maybe 8 O Linemen, not go overboard on D-Linemen and LBs, keep just 2 QBs, and then be able to load up on both WRs and TEs.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.

mi_keys
100% (Exalted)
Senior Member

11 years ago

#64

Uffda,

Since you seem so fond of quote mining, from the very article you posted earlier while discussing Skov:

Hoping to post a time in the 4.8s -- within the accepted range for run-stopping inside linebackers"

Borland ran a 4.83. Yes that's slower than average, but if you look at 40 times for inside linebackers you'd probably find the median is mid to high 4.7s, so his time is not outside the range of 40 times you typically find for linebackers.

Then there's this:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/257212751.html
He was removed from at least one team's draft board and others expressed concern for the shoulder injury while not eliminating him from consideration.

Suggesting I'm obfuscating the issues that led to Borland's draft position by pointing out there were factors other than his 40 time that contributed is simply daft.

To pull more from that article you posted:

More significant than the 40 time, not only for Skov but all prospects, is what scouts call "play speed." It's established by analyzing film and determining whether a prospect plays above, below or to the standard for his position.

"The 40 doesn't equate to football speed," Rice said. "A guy could run a great 40, and then you put pads on him and he doesn't have lateral movement or he can't come out of his cuts. He just doesn't have it."

Rice is the marquee example. He never timed well but on game day no one ever caught him.

You also said the evidence didn't support my assertions. I've been telling you that there are other factors that contribute to draft position. Pulling the 40 times of the 34 receivers taken in this last draft, plotting those times against draft position, and finding that the data showed essentially 0 correlation is evidence that the 40 times aren't the be all, end all metric your incessant harping on them would suggest. That doesn't mean the 40 time doesn't play it's part, that it's not considered important; but it probably means there are other factors in play.

Born and bred a cheesehead

uffda udfa
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#65

I was just waiting for the Rice stuff to be brought up. Thank you for taking time to read the article.

Yes, I do know there are other factors than just 40 time... the play speed thing I completely get... the posting of the Baalke quote and referencing it in subsequent posts points to that.

If you'd only go back and look at some of the things I said about the 40 before the draft, you'd be completely surprised. I get it... trust me.

No one ever caught Jerry Rice? That's the kind of stuff that always makes me smile. I think a few WR draft prospects said the same but I looked at their YouTube highlights and found examples that contradicted the player's assertion. Jerry Rice surely was caught from behind and quite easily I might add with someone with a vastly superior 40 that doesn't seem to matter.... Just forward this clip to: :40 in

EDIT: On Rice's comments...yes, he's correct, but that's why they run 3 cone drills to measure that lateral quickness he said some fast guys don't have. My guy Moncrief wasn't very good at the 3 cone. And I should say... I wanted Borland despite his known shortcomings and it had nothing to do with him being a Badger. Drives me nuts when fans of college teams go cuckoo for wanting their own on their favorite pro team. Too many blind Buckeyes fans when it comes to AJ Hawk.

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

uffda udfa
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#66

I should add that the genesis of my frustration with the 40 time thing has to do with teams in the NFC North, over the years, having guys with electrifying speed that Green Bay never seems to have...and I mean...NEVER.

Vikings... Randy Moss, Percy Harvin, AD, Corrdarrelle Patterson

Lions... Megatron, Reggie Bush, and now Ebron

Bears...Devin Hester

Why do the Green Bay Packers NEVER have a guy like the above? Ever? Randall Cobb excites all of us...because he looks so fast compared to what we've had over the years. The guy runs 4.46...about the best I recall seeing in forever. Well, Ahman Green had special speed and so does Shields. Why can't we ever have one WR who is just special when it comes to speed? Why? We're always adding guys who are solid but not special to our receiving stable. It sucks watching us flail trying to tackle guys like Harvin, Patterson, Hester, Megatron, etc... Wouldn't it be nice to have a weapon like that in our WR corps...for once? That's what I really wanted ...we got it in the 7th round, at least. Moncrief is a guy I really wanted...Taller and much faster with same leaping ability. Carved up LSU pretty good...played in real football conference. We get the possession type which might be fine for our O, but Moncrief was the homerun hitter. Aaron Rodgers has lamented the way D's play us taking away our long ball...because we have nobody with elite speed to run by it. Now, we have just another guy in the same mold who can't beat it in Adams. To know we struggled with "taking the top off a defense" and then add a guy who runs 4.56 is just infuriating to me. Get me Moncrief who can fly...instead the guy went a whole round later to Indy.

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

steveishere
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#67

Year after year we have one of the most productive deep passing attacks in the league. Our speed on offense certainly hasn't been a problem or hinderance. Jennings hit as many big plays as anyone in the league while he was here healthy and now it's Jordy doing it. Who cares what their 40 times were 5+ years ago when the production is there.

Kind of a cool site here

40+ yard TDs since 2011

40+ yard TDs 2007-2012

Now I'm not saying that these guys are hall of famers or even the best in the league. I'm saying that complaining about them not having "electric speed" seems dumb when they still produce the big plays at a high rate. It seems their speed is perfectly fine. LOL if a guy ran a 5.00 40 yard dash but he still manages to get open deep and score TDs that works for me just as well as a 4.2 guy doing the same thing.

Mucky Tundra
100% (Exalted)
Honored Member

11 years ago

#68

Originally Posted by: steveishere

Not surprised to see Jordy on the top of that list since 2011. McCarthy loves going to him deep off play-action.

Under Construction!

uffda udfa
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#69

Originally Posted by: steveishere

I'm not saying I expect our entire corps to be blazers, but it's crazy to me that we don't have one. You don't think that would make us even better on offense? You seem quite content with our speed at WR. Is our crew pretty good... absolutely. Would you like to address the idea that we don't have a guy who can take the top off a defense which was one of Rodgers laments that teams were taking away their long game? We had nobody on the roster that could just simply consistently run by people last year or the year before or the year before that. Sam Shields can change a game with his speed and often does. Where is that on O? Other teams in the NFCN have guys who can change games with their speed. We do not. Randall is the closest thing we have... and he is the type I'm referring to but just a bit faster is what I'm longing for.

It's nice that you're content with "the way things are"... don't you hope for better? I do. I see a speed merchant WR as a way to be better but I'll just get another reply about how so and so and so and so are good enough. Man, I hope Janis can play and make this team so we can have what it is I feel would make us that much better and more dangerous.

EDIT: I almost forgot that at least we have DuJuan Harris...if he's anything like he was, he's the kind of guy that our O needs. That speed and shiftiness of his is electric. An element that we sorely lack.

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

texaspackerbacker
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#70

I don't care how fast a guy is, a good DB can take an angle and cover him. I remember seeing Bullet Bob Hayes play many decades ago, and he was usually covered. Moves and play action are what gets it done - the reason Jordy Nelson is so productive on deep passes. I've seen Abbrederis get open that way in college, and I'm confident he can do the same in the NFL. Very likely the same and maybe more so for Davante Adams. Oh yeah, being able to catch the ball counts for something too.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.

nerdmann
100% (Exalted)
Premier Member

11 years ago

#71

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa

Driver was a track guy.

What gets Greg Jennings open is short area quickness. Cobb is like that too, he can change direction on a dime.

“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”

uffda udfa
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#72

Driver was a track guy but he lost his speed years before he was completely done. He and Woodson both had to go when they could no longer run as they once did.

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

steveishere
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#73

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa

Yeah, I always want us to be better and there are a lot of ways to be better besides having guys with a faster 40 time. How the shit is our speed at WR lacking when we've had one of the top big play WRs on our team the last 3 years and one of the most productive big play passing games? For some reason you seem to think me saying our speed is good enough means me saying that our speed isn't very good, I'm not saying that. I think our speed on offense is very good and our big play ability is very good and has been for quite some time.

I don't really see the difference between having a guy that will change a game with his speed or a guy that will change a game with something else he's good at. I like guys who change the game because they are good football players whether that be because they are super fast or because of something else. Casey Hayward had as much impact in his healthy season as any season Sam Shields has had. Give me 5 Haywards or 5 Shields I don't care I just want us to have great players I don't care so much what attribute that greatness manifests it self in as long as it helps us win and I'm not going to pout and cry and get depressed that a guy sucks just because he's not great at a certain attribute.

Heck look at Eddie Lacy, dude's not a burner but he sure as hell changed some games for us.

uffda udfa
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#74

I'm perplexed by that response.... I know that you think our speed is fine...that is what is baffling. You cling to these 40 yard gains. We've been fortunate that our guys have won many jump balls and contested type catches. Yes, that skill is very important as well. However, how many plays are we leaving on the field that we could hit if our guys could actually separate consistently on deep routes? I just don't see any response that makes any sense for why it's okay not to have a guy who burns the turf at WR. It is a peculiar thing to keep insisting that it's wrong for me to be concerned with finding a guy who can jet.

When a defensive coordinator prepares for our O, he can do things to our O because it doesn't have a guy who flat out flies that they need to respect. A D can be played that takes away our long game due to the fact we don't have a speed guy. I'm not sure how you missed that point that I've tried making a couple of times very unsuccessfully. I'm all for guys changing games with whatever unique skill set they possess, but the one that is MISSING is... GREAT SPEED. That is not a tool in our toolbox and as I said things can be crafted to stop us based on the fact we don't have speed that needs respecting. Wouldn't it be nice to have that alternative? A guy who could beat some of the defenses designed to stop our O the way it's currently constituted without a flier?

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

steveishere
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#75

With how easy it is to apparently craft a defense to stop our offense teams sure aren't too successful doing it. Why do you keep insisting our guys don't get any separation on deep routes, they get plenty of separation on deep routes. We don't really have any jump ball type WRs without Finley so I don't see how you can say we've thrived on that type of play. Our offense thrives on YAC which wouldn't be possible without guys getting separation. Having a super fast guy would be great but I'm not gonna cry about passing up a "speed" for a guy who is possibly a better WR but didn't time as fast.

Plus having a bruiser running game is going to make it really tough for teams to keep worrying about the deep ball. This is going to be a dangerous offense next year.

DarkaneRules
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#76

We are also lucky to have a quarterback that can throw dudes open. It creates a lot of wow moments during a season. Those plays always impress me more than the deep ones.

Circular Arguments: They are a heck of an annoyance

uffda udfa
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#77

Our guys don't get plenty of separation on deep routes...if they did they'd be walking them into the endzone for TD's. You've gotta be kidding me on this aspect. Jones, Boykin, Nelson, all three of them make a lot of contested crazy catches. None of those guys are just blowing by CB's. Cobb can do it occasionally as he's the fastest guy we've got. Again, I see this issue 180 from you.

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

sschind
100% (Exalted)
Senior Member

11 years ago

#78

if we had a real speedster (like Corey Bradford for example) just think how many more long passes Rodgers would launch. Then we would have to listen to that much more complaining by those among us who think all he does is throw long.

I get what you are saying Uffda and it would be nice to have a speedster but you seem to be advocating speed for the sake of speed. We have all seen super fast guys flame out quickly.

You listed a group of some pretty good players and I won't argue with you on any of them. Except maybe Hester. Yeah he is a game changer but that is on STs not at W. Also Ebron, we have no idea if our TEs or any of the other players we drafted will out perform him. Oh and AD and Bush since they are RBs. Other than that yeah I would kill to have a player like Megatron or Moss (at least a player with his ability anyway) or Patterson (I do think this guy will be special) and maybe even Harvin ( though what good is a fast guy if he can't get on the field.)

On the other hand, since you brought up the NFC North, would you trade our pass receiving corps (WR's and TE's) for the Bears Lions or vikings.

My answer, the Bears I probably would make that switch. I'd take Jeffry and Marshall over Nelson and Cobb in a heartbeat but I'm not really sure about the Bears depth. (though to be honest I am not all that sure about our depth any more) I know they have a #3 that they are very high on. The Lions and vikings no way. You know what's funny about that, Jeffry and Marshall weren't even on your list of fast guys ( I don't know what their speed is but they they make catches and that is what is important.)

I wouldn't want Devin Hester as one of the WRs I had to rely on and we all know he is (was) very fast. To me the bottom line is a WR needs to be able to catch the ball, run great routes, break tackles, move the sticks and score TDs. If he can do all that and he is fast so much the better but if he can do those things and his speed is average, I'll take that too.

Dexter_Sinister
100% (Exalted)
Registered

11 years ago

#79

Fast, stupid and can't catch is no way to go through life son.

Hester is a waste of meat at WR.

I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.

uffda udfa
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#80

Originally Posted by: sschind

I don't want speed for sake of speed... I want a guy who can change games with speed ala Shields. The first year Shields was with us he was pretty much clueless but his speed made up for much of what he didn't know. I want a Shields type on O.

Hester was brought up for his speed on returns. I would take Marshall and Jeffery over Nelson and Cobb also. Neither of them is a burner. Jeffery is 6'3 with high 4.4 speed. Marshall is 6'5 and runs low 4.5's. Their size is their weapon. Those are some big dudes. I didn't bring either up in my previous post because they aren't speed guys...they're size guys. Marquess Wilson is the guy they're high on...he could be a very good weapon for them with the varied attack they have. He's another tall guy... 6'4...and Bennett is a tall TE.

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

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