steveishere
10 years ago

Yes, I used Boykin as an example on the other side of things...however, anyone who watches Bokyin knows he has poor speed. Plus, his example is germane in that he was a prolific WR in college for Va Tech but was NOT drafted. Why?... poor speed. Don't you understand that? The point is he was undrafted because he couldn't run.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



BS, if you watched Boykin without knowing what his 40 time was before hand nobody would say he's too slow, the point is that he obviously CAN run and he obviously CAN play football at a fairly high level. His 40 time doesn't matter.

Rodgers was a reach based on speed. A TE who runs 4.8/4.9 like he did doesn't get taken in the 3rd round.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 

Obviously they do lol. His speed didn't stop him from being one of the best catch and run receivers out of the TE class last year.

Gimme Lyerla... Ran 4.61 digitally.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 

Lyerla looks like a good football player, not sure what he has to do with it.

Rodgers may be able to use his size but he won't be a guy getting a lot of separation with his speed.

Someone post up a star TE who ran 4.8+ and didn't run any better at his pro day. Best of luck.

His speed is comparable to Heath Miller (4.79) without the blocking ability. He is nowhere near the same league, speed wise, as guys like Graham, Davis, Cameron, Julius Thomas, Jordan Reed, Lyerla, Ebron, etc.

If he can be a solid contributor like a Heath Miller that would be fantastic. Heath Miller was a former 1st rounder who had/has a nice career with Big Ben. Miller doesn't create mismatches or change games but is nice TE. I would guess that's Rodgers ceiling.


Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 




He doesn't need a lot of straight line speed to get separation or to catch the football. He needs smooth route running. Finley never got much separation. Rodgers will throw him open anyways.

Why does he have to be a superstar? There are very few superstar TE in this league. We just need a guy who is good, he may or may not be good in the end but he'll probably never run a 40 yard dash again in his life lol and his future success is going to depend on if he can learn to run good routes, catch, and block not if he can improve on his 40 time or not. If he can do those things he'll help this team win and help this offense be one of the best whether he becomes a superstar or not
play2win
10 years ago
I just love that he's using Rodgers' worst 40 time recorded in an attempt to support a negative, critical stance on one of our newly drafted players...

That's fucked up! 😆 😆 😆

Here is how 40 times are currently determined. Nowhere does it say they put any weight into a player's worst timed 40 (as a matter of fact, it is always thrown out). The process is completely subjective and varies widely between teams in how they are determined and used. "Digitally" recorded 40 times are truly only half so, as they are begun by hand at the start, and electronically recorded at the finish only. The NFL is not going to full electronic recording simply because it would lower every player's 40 time... so, what does that say about throwing a whole lot of weight behind this one, fan driven and hyped statistic?

Here is what happens to get the 40 times at the Combine that are revealed:

--Those who participate in the 40 actually run twice, and on each run they are timed by two hand-held stopwatches and one electronic timer (that is actually initiated by hand on the player's first movement).

--Combine data put together for NFL teams by National Scouting includes all six of those times for each player, but no single official time.

Team scouts and coaches have various approaches for reaching agreement on a 40 time they use from those six timings. Some use averages. Some throw out slowest and fastest and then average the rest. Some ignore the whole thing and use a time taken by their own scout.



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1543670-how-are-40-yard-dash-times-recorded 

Here's more on the real significance, if any, on the Combine's 40 times by Mike Boyle:

Speed is the stuff of urban legend. Deion Sanders supposedly showed up at the NFL Combine, ran a 4.2 and went home. We routinely hear of high school kids who purportedly run 4.3's and 4.4's. The stories of "reported" speed have gotten out of control. This would not be a problem in and of itself. Most of us could look at it and say "so what" people lie or people embellish. The real problem is that the lies seem to be setting the standard. One of the reasons that I no longer train athletes for the NFL Combine is the unrealistic expectations of athletes and agents based on these "urban legends" or the occasional freakish performance like Vernon Davis this year.

Davis measured out at 6'3" and 263 lbs., ran a 4.38 forty and vertical jumped 40 inches. Those are insane stats. We won't see that again for a long time in my mind. Every year it seems like there is some freakish performance by an athlete that raises the bar of expectation. I would have less of a problem if these expectations were not trickling down to high school kids. My intention is to set the record straight with facts. In order to prove this I pored over the NFL Combine results for the six years that I had on file. The following statistics are taken directly from the Combine results. It should be noted that although the Combine times are considered "electronic", they are closer to handheld than electronic. There are three potential timing options:

1- Electronic start- electronic finish. This should be the standard but, unfortunately is not. The start is done with a touch pad and the finish with a photocell. This is the most accurate and as a result yields the slowest times. An electronic start/ electronic finish time has been shown to be .22 seconds slower than a hand held 40 yard dash. ( Brown, 2004)

2- Hand Start- electronic finish. This is a system used uniquely at the NFL Combine. A hand start-electronic finish will be approximately .1 seconds slower than a hand held 40 yard dash. In the combine the use of hand start will be particularly evident in the faster ten yard dash times. Athletes will run 10 yard times much closer to a hand held but, times at each following split will be closer to the electronic time.

3- Hand Start- hand finish- this is the fastest and least accurate. Handheld times tend to be faster but are clearly more prone to human error. Many of the legendary times I believe were hand-held timing combined with human error or human expectation.

At the NFL Combine in 1996, 97, 98, 2001 and 2003 and 2006 no one ran a 4.2. No one. Not one person. In 2001 Ladainian Tomlinson ran one 4.36, five in the 4.4's and vertical jumped 40.5. 2003 was a fast year, yet still produced no 4.2's. Ten athletes ran 4.3's in 2003. The heaviest was a 223 pound running back. The Combine track is always said to be slow but the truth is it is simply accurate. All of these supposed fast times seem to be run at times when no independent verification is available. Seems a bit curious doesn't it.

Here's another angle on the whole "speed" thing. Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis ran split times of 4.67 for 40 meters ( Bryan, Rose-Hulman) The split times are below.

1.84 10 yd
2.86 20 (1.02 split)
3.8 30 (.94 split)
4.67 40 (.87 split)

40 meters is 43.74 yards. This would make the distance approximately ten percent further. This means we could reduce the time by approximately .36 seconds to account for the additional 3.7 yards. This would mean that in constant acceleration mode the best sprinters in the history of the world, using blocks, ran 4.31 for 40 yards. Does it seem plausible that high school football players can run faster times without blocks.

The table below shows some of the athletes who ran below 4.4 at the NFL Combine. Obviously the athletes are getting faster but, we still don't see the dreaded 4.2's we hear so much about. In 2005 I believe one athlete actually ran a 4.2 although I did not have those stats available. One athlete in a decade.

In 2006 of nineteen running backs listed in the internet report (unofficial) Maurice Drew of UCLA was the only 4.3 and he ran a 4.39. In other words one running back ran under 4.4 and, he did it by one one-hundreth. Four wide receivers out of thirty-one ran under 4.4. In fact five ran over 4.6. This means more wide receivers ran over 4.6 than under 4.4. 2006 was an exceptional year for defensive backs with nine sub 4.4's. The key, again in 2006 was that there were no 4.2's in the results I saw.

As coaches, we need to stop perpetuating the myths. We need to tell our athletes what the average at the NFL Combine was and not what the best "freak" times were. We need to further explain to them that it is unrealistic to expect to even meet the NFL averages. As with everything in our society, we have raised the bar unrealistically high. Let's be honest with ourselves and with our athletes.



http://www.strengthcoach.com/public/1140.cfm 
steveishere
10 years ago
I'm not saying speed isn't important at all I'm saying a 40 yard dash in shorts and a t-shirt doesn't really fully represent someones speed on a football field. It doesn't represent a large sample of how a football player runs on the field in an actual game.

Showing me a 40 yard dash time and then telling me someone is too slow based solely on that time isn't really very convincing.
play2win
10 years ago

I'm not saying speed isn't important at all I'm saying a 40 yard dash in shorts and a t-shirt doesn't really fully represent someones speed on a football field. It doesn't represent a large sample of how a football player runs on the field in an actual game.

Showing me a 40 yard dash time and then telling me someone is too slow based solely on that time isn't really very convincing.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 



I couldn't agree more. They should be running "Gear On" 40's, on turf... Now, that would be a more accurate measure of what teams might expect in drafting a player, and all digital, start and finish.

I love the idea of adding team speed on the field (I even started a thread addressing this pre draft). There are more variables that go into this though than a subjectively clocked time in shorts on a track. Of course the gear they normally wear during games is important, but so is a player's ability to run crisp routes, stop and turn upfield, etc. Not to mention, it means little if the player cannot secure the ball.

We seem to have added players who are adept at running good routes and being able to make the catch. They also have some pretty solid RAC stats. So, that I find more encouraging than anything.
uffda udfa
10 years ago

I just love that he's using Rodgers' worst 40 time recorded in an attempt to support a negative, critical stance on one of our newly drafted players...

That's fucked up! 😆 😆 😆

Here is how 40 times are currently determined. Nowhere does it say they put any weight into a player's worst timed 40 (as a matter of fact, it is always thrown out). The process is completely subjective and varies widely between teams in how they are determined and used. "Digitally" recorded 40 times are truly only half so, as they are begun by hand at the start, and electronically recorded at the finish only. The NFL is not going to full electronic recording simply because it would lower every player's 40 time... so, what does that say about throwing a whole lot of weight behind this one, fan driven and hyped statistic?



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1543670-how-are-40-yard-dash-times-recorded 

Here's more on the real significance, if any, on the Combine's 40 times by Mike Boyle:



http://www.strengthcoach.com/public/1140.cfm 

Originally Posted by: play2win 



You're already on record saying both of these guys are better players than Finley (Lyerla and Rodgers). I will continue to smile when I read all these anti 40 posts. What do scouts and GM's use to separate players? 40 time looms large in where a person is drafted. If you could have a TE run 4.5 or 4.9 which would you choose? Many of you have completely trivialized 40 times as meaningless. It is vital. If you guys really don't understand how the NFL draft works I can't help you. Boykin went undrafted because he could not run. If the guy ran somewhere in the 4.4 range he would've been a top pick. Run 4.7 and go undrafted. It seems 32 teams who have scouts and GM's including Green Bay decided he wasn't worthy of being drafted. Please, explain to me why he went undrafted? You will be forced to admit the thing you keep railing against pretending it doesn't matter.

Finley was a guy who altered defenses for the Packers. I highly doubt Rodgers will be the same in that regard and that affects our offense so I was hoping we'd have a guy who had abilities similar to Finley's. Rodgers ain't it. Lyerla might be with his speed.



UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


steveishere
10 years ago
If Boykin can't run how did he manage to gain 700 yards with 10 20+ yard plays? Yeah he didn't get drafted yet he out produced 20 some people from that class that were drafted. So far despite his draft position he's done nothing but prove he can indeed run and his 40 time was indeed meaningless with respect to if he can play football.
nerdmann
10 years ago

If Boykin can't run how did he manage to gain 700 yards with 10 20+ yard plays? Yeah he didn't get drafted yet he out produced 20 some people from that class that were drafted. So far despite his draft position he's done nothing but prove he can indeed run and his 40 time was indeed meaningless with respect to if he can play football.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 



You people jerk to Boykin video, don't you?
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
play2win
10 years ago

You're already on record saying both of these guys are better players than Finley (Lyerla and Rodgers).

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



I believe I said they have the potential to be, not that they already are, but whatever. I'm not into looking back at that shit and if I did say it I can stand behind it. No problem. I do think both Rodgers and Lyerla will prove to be better players than Jermichael Finley, after seeing how they move, catch, run after the catch.

What do scouts and GM's use to separate players?

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



One hell of a lot more information and variables than simply 40 times.

Many of you have completely trivialized 40 times as meaningless.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



No. It is simply that you are putting WAY too much emphasis on the importance of 40 times. You've done it multiple times throughout the draft and in post draft discussions on a number of players.

If you guys really don't understand how the NFL draft works I can't help you.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Oh, please... Get over yourself. Did you do the "Superior Dance" after you wrote this?

Boykin went undrafted because he could not run. If the guy ran somewhere in the 4.4 range he would've been a top pick. Run 4.7 and go undrafted. It seems 32 teams who have scouts and GM's including Green Bay decided he wasn't worthy of being drafted. Please, explain to me why he went undrafted? You will be forced to admit the thing you keep railing against pretending it doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



You just totally miss the point. I don't particularly care that he wasn't drafted. I don't particularly care that we passed him up. What I do care about is that Ted saw fit to sign him as a player with the potential to improve. And now, look what he has done. This is EXACTLY the point in all of this. Success at the NFL level is not solely predicated on 40 times!!!

Finley was a guy who altered defenses for the Packers. I highly doubt Rodgers will be the same in that regard and that affects our offense so I was hoping we'd have a guy who had abilities similar to Finley's. Rodgers ain't it.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



And, you are willing to make such a bold statement over five one-hundreths of a second difference... I call BS on that. How are you to know that Richard Rodgers won't get separation, won't be able to run, will prove to be a lesser talent than Finley?

.05 seconds difference, even though Rodgers ran it 25 lbs heavier?

wow.
steveishere
10 years ago

You people jerk to Boykin video, don't you?

Originally Posted by: nerdmann 



The hell you talking about? That was a statement of facts. If you don't have anything to add but some juvenile meaningless bullshit like that then just get the hell out.
uffda udfa
10 years ago
So, Boykin wasn't drafted because of his 40 time? I didn't get a clear read on that simple question. The answer is... YES, Boykin didn't get drafted because of his 40 time DESPITE all of his other very attractive qualities as a player. I'm not making the 40 time any more important than what the guys who make decisions in the NFL do. Superior? LOL. Reality. You can live there or not there it isn't a superior thing at all.

P2w... why do you incessantly try to make a point that isn't valid? Their 40 times are not .05 apart. Finley ran in the 4.6 range during his pro day. Rodgers ran 4.8/9 at his.

EDIT: Here's a nice piece on Boykin and his lack of speed and other qualities.

Boykin 
UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


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