Analyzing Packers' depth chart: Defense· Page 3

mi_keys
Senior Member

11 years ago

play, tex and luigis,

I should've focused the quote on Luigis post to what I was really responding too. That was lazy on my part. I don't buy that it's the more important of the positions.

So to that point, play, I don't disagree that we've won with some top talent at safety. Leroy and Nick are two of my favorite Packers. Eugene was great in '96 too. The Packers also had top pass rushers on those teams with Reggie and Clay.

I'm on the same page as you as far as getting someone alongside of Burnett and getting him back to Free Safety. I think that would be a huge improvement.

I also agree the majority of championship teams have good safety play. Championship teams have few weak points so you could say that about virtually every position.

There are still teams like the 2007 and 2011 Giants who won with pretty average safeties in James Butler, Gibril Wilson, Kenny Phillips and Antrel Rolle. In fairness, Rolle is pretty good but the rest are average at best. Hell, that '07 Giants Super Bowl team won that game almost entirely on the back of what their front 4 did on defense.

Ideally, you get both playing elite but if you have to settle for okay at one of the two spots I'd rather settle for okay at safety and get elite play from the pass rush. That said, under no circumstances was our safety play even okay last year.

To Tex, I'm completely on board with your points about who we have to rush the passers and that we need to draft some safeties. I said as much in another thread. I'd like one developmental option with the pass rush if someone falls or the board shakes out that way. But that's for injury cover and to take over in a couple years when Peppers is gone. We need safeties. Period.

Why did you have to bring up 4th and 26. Ugh, that game still disgusts me. But yes, an inadequate safety play can blow a coverage and lead to a big play. Same with a corner. Safe with a linebacker on a tight end or a slot receiver down the seem. Pass rush being completely nullified and giving a quarterback all day will make any secondary look bad. No one can cover forever.

Luigis, see my point above responding to Texas: if you give a quarterback all day it will lead to a big play as well. No one, no secondary, has ever been able to cover all day.

We haven't been getting consistent pressure. That's why we went after Peppers. That's why we drafted Perry and Datone. We've been looking for a weapon on the opposite side so that the offense can't just focus on one player. And for all practical matters what we're really debating is when you have two safeties vs. two pass rushers (with at least one great and one acceptable), because you run into the same issues if one of your safeties is shit: the opposing team will throw away from your good one and pick on your weak safety.

The best two safeties in the NFL with no pass rush will still be ineffective. No one can cover all day. Get our safeties to at least average and we'll be okay assuming CMIII and Peppers stay healthy and live up to their ability.

Born and bred a cheesehead

warhawk
Senior Member

11 years ago

#22

I think at this point between a pass rusher and a Safety I would say the need is at Safety. I totally understand the concept of getting a rush on the QB but here is how I look at this team as it stands now.
We know Mathews, Daniels, Peppers, and Perry, can get after the QB along with D. Jones and Neal hopefully improving in that area. While you always want to see improvement the pass rush numbers were not bad last year and I expect they will improve.

The mistake NOT to make is what they did last year when they banked on the personnel they had last year to come thru at Safety and that did not happen. They need Burnett to go back to his natural position and get as much competition as they can because right now they don't know if Hyde or Richardson can be solid there for sure.

So because I have more confidence that the D has the talent to get after the QB albeit never hurts to get better if it comes down to one or the other I would say fix the Safety spot.

It's ridiculous to go an entire year and for the Safeties to not get one singe pick. You would think an overthrow, tipped ball, a pass bouncing off a receivers hands would at least land in a Safeties hands ONCE. Aside from the lack of int's these guys were far to often flat out beaten or were late/wrong in coverage.

Again, maybe the fix is there already with Hyde or Richardson but the fact is we don't know and it has to get better or the pass rush would need to be unbelievable to cover up for it.

PS: Rookies don't normally make unbelievable pass rushers unless their name is Watts.

"The train is leaving the station."

buckeyepackfan
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#23

Just like last season when we started Bakhtiari and Lacy... super glad they didn't do that! It would have spelled "disaster!"

What planet are you living on? We've been fielding rosters loaded with rookies and 2nd year players, many of whom have started for us over the past 4 seasons. One of the youngest, if not the youngest teams in the NFL over that span.

Originally Posted by: play2win

#1 RB is a position that, if you look all around the league, every year, that rookies can step in and make a difference right away.

#2 Bahktiari was forced to start, because of injury, and performed well above anybody's expectations.

Like I said earlier if a team finds one rookie starter they are really happy.

In 2013 The Packers found 2 rookie starters(which made them really ecstatic!!!)

#3 I'm not the one who is always bitching and complaining about The Packer roster.

Ted wants to field a team of rookies and 2nd year guys, so be it, I'll be the one guy on this forum defending those guys as most of the rest of you whine and cry about how Ted is pissing away another year of Aaron Rodger's career.

There are upgrades that need to be made, but plugging in a bunch of rookies, isn't going to solve the problems.

Guys stay healthy this year, and using the young ones who received valuable playing time last year, is going to go a lot farther toward upgrading the team then plugging in a bunch of rookies.

Hell I hope Ted hits a home run on every pick this year, I'm just not gonna get all bent out of shape if the 2014 rookie class plays backup rolls all year.

BTW You're right the Packers have been forced to play rookies and 2nd year guys a whole lot the last few years, and how's that worked out for them?

I've been ok with the results, would have liked another Ring, but hey that's life in the NFL.

Obviously you haven't been ok with it.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is what?

I'll let you answer that.

I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!

texaspackerbacker
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#24

Nobody is saying the situation is bad, just that it could be better - a LOT better - if Ted just maximized the opportunities available. As many have said, there's no trophy for playing it safest with the cap. As I, at least, have said, we got exposed last season for what the team is really like minus Aaron Rodgers. I'm supremely confident that this coming season, the Packers will be great - an elite team - just not nearly as great and elite as they could be with ....... a little of this and a little of that. Bakhtiari is a prime symptom of that "good enough is good enough" syndrome, and I wouldn't be surprised if that and a few other positions - mostly on defense - go unmaximized again this season. But, with just a little bit of luck - injury-wise and otherwise, we could still easily go to and win the Super Bowl.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.

play2win
Senior Member

11 years ago

#25

#1 RB is a position that, if you look all around the league, every year, that rookies can step in and make a difference right away.

#2 Bahktiari was forced to start, because of injury, and performed well above anybody's expectations.

Like I said earlier if a team finds one rookie starter they are really happy.

In 2013 The Packers found 2 rookie starters(which made them really ecstatic!!!)

#3 I'm not the one who is always bitching and complaining about The Packer roster.

Ted wants to field a team of rookies and 2nd year guys, so be it, I'll be the one guy on this forum defending those guys as most of the rest of you whine and cry about how Ted is pissing away another year of Aaron Rodger's career.

There are upgrades that need to be made, but plugging in a bunch of rookies, isn't going to solve the problems.

Guys stay healthy this year, and using the young ones who received valuable playing time last year, is going to go a lot farther toward upgrading the team then plugging in a bunch of rookies.

Hell I hope Ted hits a home run on every pick this year, I'm just not gonna get all bent out of shape if the 2014 rookie class plays backup rolls all year.

BTW You're right the Packers have been forced to play rookies and 2nd year guys a whole lot the last few years, and how's that worked out for them?

I've been ok with the results, would have liked another Ring, but hey that's life in the NFL.

Obviously you haven't been ok with it.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is what?

I'll let you answer that.

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan

No, no, no. I've stated that exact same thing many times regarding the notion of making the same mistakes over and over and expecting different results being foolish.

I just don't know where you get off saying a poster in this forum is "whining," "crying" or "complaining," when in actuality is simply calling out areas of our team that need to be addressed or improved upon in order to make the team better, in a forum established for this very purpose, to discuss these issues.

Take a look in the mirror buddy, and throw your Captain-of-the-Flower-Field cape in the garbage while you're at it.

You be as happy as you want to with the way things have been going these last 3 years. That's fine. I don't care. Me, I want many on this team to be doing a better job. That includes Mike McCarthy and his staff, Ted Thompson and his staff, and our players.

As appreciative as I may be with who these men are who are running our organization, IMO, there is no excuse for having not properly addressed our glaring issues at S since Nick Collins went down in September of 2011. No excuse. That's a personnel problem.

Just like there is no excuse for having 12 men on the field twice in one game. No excuse. That's a coaching problem.

There are plenty of other issues that we've discussed that I don't need to go into, but bringing them up in discussing the team is not bitching, crying, whining or complaining. It is just a fan wanting better things for -our- Packers team, and talking about those ideas with other fans. Clearly, you have a problem with anyone who is not following your own line of thinking without throwing insults around. That's unfortunate.

I want championships for this Packers team. Plain and simple. You get there by correcting mistakes and moving forward. I'm hopeful that is what will happen.

FYI, I'm generally a very positive person. I haven't been all that impressed with the way things have been going for our Packers team these last 3 seasons. That is true. I thought Ted signing Peppers was one step in the right direction. I think there needs to be more of those positive steps before I will consider this Packers team a true contender again. Unfortunately, we will be needing to rely on either Sean Richardson, Chris Banjo, or a rookie opposite Burnett this season at one of the defense's most important positions, because that is the way Ted Thompson has chosen to address this 3 years down the line. I'm sorry, but I cannot get too excited about that.

I actually agree with you on the rookie thing. I don't want rookies playing these important positions either, but sometimes they are forced into those situations, and all we can do is hope for the best.

Again, this is about championships. The Packers have proven themselves to not be in that class these last 3 years. As a fan, I'd like to see that change.

DakotaT
Select Member

11 years ago

#26

I think this team already has its strong safety in Micah Hyde. That kid can flat out tackle and as a converted corner will have coverage ability, which seems to be what Capers demands in both safeties. What Hyde might not have is the big hit capability you want in your SS. Burnett had too much on his plate last year, with such weak counterparts.

What the Packers don't have is thump in their middle linebackers. Jones can hit the bricks as far as I'm concerned. But in their defense, the ILB's are not getting enough protection from the NT position whether it be Raji or Pickett. We need to find a Casey Hampton or Vince Wilfork and until we do, the defense is going to continue to suffer from it. How this is not discussed more as a major problem by you guys is astonishing.

I think our corners are above average compared to the rest of the league. The Shields signing was a must, and I was completely happy with it. We'll see if Tramon wants to stick around after this season. I think his contract is coming up. That leaves Hampton and House and probably a rookie for the nickel and dime packages. We'll see if "9 lives" Jarrett Bush makes the team again, but if he's on the field - I do not feel comfortable.

Which takes us to the D-line and OLB's which is fucking mess. I really don't know what we have to tell you the truth. Praying Peppers can teach the younger guys how to be NFL players, because CM3 is certainly no leader.

This defense fell apart with the Collins injury, and we have been living on a prayer with the players we've tried to replace him with. For some of our posters to just blame it all on injuries and are good to go with what we have is pretty lazy. I agree with Play that what we've watched in the last few years on defense is unacceptable. We do have a lot of talent, however, there is a huge disconnect between the coaches and players. Maybe Capers just needs to dumb it down a little bit until the players catch up to what he is doing.

I'm optimistic that the defense can play much better, but I have not been happy with the play of our linebackers for quite a while. There doesn't seem to be the necessary tenacity you expect out of the position. The 3-4 is a linebacker defense, time to get the players we need to play it well.

luigis
Member

11 years ago

#27

play, tex and luigis,

I should've focused the quote on Luigis post to what I was really responding too. That was lazy on my part. I don't buy that it's the more important of the positions.

So to that point, play, I don't disagree that we've won with some top talent at safety. Leroy and Nick are two of my favorite Packers. Eugene was great in '96 too. The Packers also had top pass rushers on those teams with Reggie and Clay.

I'm on the same page as you as far as getting someone alongside of Burnett and getting him back to Free Safety. I think that would be a huge improvement.

I also agree the majority of championship teams have good safety play. Championship teams have few weak points so you could say that about virtually every position.

There are still teams like the 2007 and 2011 Giants who won with pretty average safeties in James Butler, Gibril Wilson, Kenny Phillips and Antrel Rolle. In fairness, Rolle is pretty good but the rest are average at best. Hell, that '07 Giants Super Bowl team won that game almost entirely on the back of what their front 4 did on defense.

Ideally, you get both playing elite but if you have to settle for okay at one of the two spots I'd rather settle for okay at safety and get elite play from the pass rush. That said, under no circumstances was our safety play even okay last year.

To Tex, I'm completely on board with your points about who we have to rush the passers and that we need to draft some safeties. I said as much in another thread. I'd like one developmental option with the pass rush if someone falls or the board shakes out that way. But that's for injury cover and to take over in a couple years when Peppers is gone. We need safeties. Period.

Why did you have to bring up 4th and 26. Ugh, that game still disgusts me. But yes, an inadequate safety play can blow a coverage and lead to a big play. Same with a corner. Safe with a linebacker on a tight end or a slot receiver down the seem. Pass rush being completely nullified and giving a quarterback all day will make any secondary look bad. No one can cover forever.

Luigis, see my point above responding to Texas: if you give a quarterback all day it will lead to a big play as well. No one, no secondary, has ever been able to cover all day.

We haven't been getting consistent pressure. That's why we went after Peppers. That's why we drafted Perry and Datone. We've been looking for a weapon on the opposite side so that the offense can't just focus on one player. And for all practical matters what we're really debating is when you have two safeties vs. two pass rushers (with at least one great and one acceptable), because you run into the same issues if one of your safeties is shit: the opposing team will throw away from your good one and pick on your weak safety.

The best two safeties in the NFL with no pass rush will still be ineffective. No one can cover all day. Get our safeties to at least average and we'll be okay assuming CMIII and Peppers stay healthy and live up to their ability.

Originally Posted by: mi_keys

You are right about one thing: A terrible DL can create no pass rush even if you give them 10 minutes, but the best two safeties in the league can't cover everybody for 10 minutes. Focusing in our current team I think that with CMIII and Peppers we will have some kind of pass rush, the problem is that the QBs are finding people open before the rushers can do anything.

I think nobody here is happy with MD Jennings starting and a few of us have also problems with Morgan. I think we like Morgan only by default, he is better than the others.

Scheme is also critical, in the 07 Giants there was man coverage and the safeties player a very diminished role while in many of our zone coverages the position of the safeties is critical. We've seen how many plays where a receiver or TE or RB is completely uncovered and the safeties look around as saying "who was supossed to be there?". Unless we change the scheme we are going to need good safeties and that's a bad grade for Capers, he should've realized the talent he had in the safeties and change schemes to put them in minor roles.

Luis

texaspackerbacker
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#28

I think this team already has its strong safety in Micah Hyde. That kid can flat out tackle and as a converted corner will have coverage ability, which seems to be what Capers demands in both safeties. What Hyde might not have is the big hit capability you want in your SS. Burnett had too much on his plate last year, with such weak counterparts.

What the Packers don't have is thump in their middle linebackers. Jones can hit the bricks as far as I'm concerned. But in their defense, the ILB's are not getting enough protection from the NT position whether it be Raji or Pickett. We need to find a Casey Hampton or Vince Wilfork and until we do, the defense is going to continue to suffer from it. How this is not discussed more as a major problem by you guys is astonishing.

I think our corners are above average compared to the rest of the league. The Shields signing was a must, and I was completely happy with it. We'll see if Tramon wants to stick around after this season. I think his contract is coming up. That leaves Hampton and House and probably a rookie for the nickel and dime packages. We'll see if "9 lives" Jarrett Bush makes the team again, but if he's on the field - I do not feel comfortable.

Which takes us to the D-line and OLB's which is fucking mess. I really don't know what we have to tell you the truth. Praying Peppers can teach the younger guys how to be NFL players, because CM3 is certainly no leader.

This defense fell apart with the Collins injury, and we have been living on a prayer with the players we've tried to replace him with. For some of our posters to just blame it all on injuries and are good to go with what we have is pretty lazy. I agree with Play that what we've watched in the last few years on defense is unacceptable. We do have a lot of talent, however, there is a huge disconnect between the coaches and players. Maybe Capers just needs to dumb it down a little bit until the players catch up to what he is doing.

I'm optimistic that the defense can play much better, but I have not been happy with the play of our linebackers for quite a while. There doesn't seem to be the necessary tenacity you expect out of the position. The 3-4 is a linebacker defense, time to get the players we need to play it well.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT

Good Job! (you really ought to stick to football hahaha). I agree with you about most of it.

Using Hyde might be a solution, but IMO it would be settling - a lot like having Bakhtiari in the O-Line. We have a first round pick, and what better use than for a top-of-the-line Safety? You said yourself, the D fell apart after Collins. Clinton-Dixon is the closest thing I see out there to Collins, and he should be available at #21.

And of course, I, too would love to see Brad Jones hit the road and be replaced at least by Lattimore, and more likely by a Mosely or Borland class ILB to pair with Hawk for a year or two, then replace Hawk too.

As for getting a stronger version of Raji at NT, first of all, they don't grow on trees. Most of us thought we had that kind of a guy when we wasted our highest pick in a generation on Raji. Who's to say Nix or anybody else wouldn't be a flop also? More importantly, though, I, for one, would rather the Packers use the NT position the way the Cowboys did when Jay Ratliff was playing at a high level - as a penetrator and tackler, not just taking up space and shielding the ILBs from blockers. There's a slim chance (very slim) that Raji might be up to that; Maybe Boyd could be that type of player, but what I would really like to see is Worthy or Daniels becoming a Ratliff-type of NT.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.

buckeyepackfan
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#29

"
"As appreciative as I may be with who these men are who are running our organization, IMO, there is no excuse for having not properly addressed our glaring issues at S since Nick Collins went down in September of 2011. No excuse. That's a personnel problem."

Statements like that, are just plain bullshit.

#1 Nick Collins took a couple of years to show what he had as a Safety.

Ted had Burnett and Jennings already on the team, then he brought in McMillian, Richardson, and last year Banjo.

Everyone one of those guys showed just as much promise as a rookie as Nick Collins did.

I guess Ted's crystal ball hasn't been working, he should have known Richardson was going to get injured, McMillian was going to fold under the pressure of having to start, and Jennings was going to regress his 3rd year.

The S position is very thin this year in the draft.
There are 3 good ones available, but unless Ted wants to trade the farm, Clinton-Dix will probably be gone.
,
That leaves Pryor and Brooks, should Ted reach at 21 for either of these guys, or hope one of them fall to him at 53?

And if he does , where is the guarantee any of these guys are the answer?

Hasean Clinton-Dix, FS, Alabama(1st rnd)
Calvin Pryor, FS, Louisville(1st or early-mid 2nd)
Terrence Brooks, FS, Florida State(1st or early-mid 2nd)
Jimmie Ward, SS, Northern Illinois(3rd)
Ed Reynolds, FS, Stanford(4th-5th)
Kenny Ladler, FS, Vanderbilt(4th-5th)
Craig Loston, SS, LSU(5th-6th)
Ahmad Dixon, SS, Baylor(5th-6th)

I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!

texaspackerbacker
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#30

"
"As appreciative as I may be with who these men are who are running our organization, IMO, there is no excuse for having not properly addressed our glaring issues at S since Nick Collins went down in September of 2011. No excuse. That's a personnel problem."

Statements like that, are just plain bullshit.

#1 Nick Collins took a couple of years to show what he had as a Safety.

Ted had Burnett and Jennings already on the team, then he brought in McMillian, Richardson, and last year Banjo.

Everyone one of those guys showed just as much promise as a rookie as Nick Collins did.

I guess Ted's crystal ball hasn't been working, he should have known Richardson was going to get injured, McMillian was going to fold under the pressure of having to start, and Jennings was going to regress his 3rd year.

The S position is very thin this year in the draft.
There are 3 good ones available, but unless Ted wants to trade the farm, Clinton-Dix will probably be gone.
,
That leaves Pryor and Brooks, should Ted reach at 21 for either of these guys, or hope one of them fall to him at 53?

And if he does , where is the guarantee any of these guys are the answer?

Hasean Clinton-Dix, FS, Alabama(1st rnd)
Calvin Pryor, FS, Louisville(1st or early-mid 2nd)
Terrence Brooks, FS, Florida State(1st or early-mid 2nd)
Jimmie Ward, SS, Northern Illinois(3rd)
Ed Reynolds, FS, Stanford(4th-5th)
Kenny Ladler, FS, Vanderbilt(4th-5th)
Craig Loston, SS, LSU(5th-6th)
Ahmad Dixon, SS, Baylor(5th-6th)

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan

That's why I say draft at least two of them - 1st and 3rd round and another lower. Clinton-Dix in particular, seems to be a ballhawk like Collins. Giving ourselves a couple of chances to hit on a pick seems like the best way.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.

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