steveishere
11 years ago

Dude, give it a rest.

"It's unreasonable to expect to get a FA that will become a hall of famer." Who said that? You did. No one said they were expecting that. So, get off it.

Originally Posted by: play2win 



Now explain to me how the fuck that = "we have to sign only prospective HOF Free Agents." and I'll "get off it". The point of saying that was to point out that Woodson is a bad example of an expectation in FA. Pickett is a reasonable expectation that's why I never had any problem with that.

" If anyone is seriously expecting to get another Woodson like signing anytime soon they are simply being unreasonable."

^^ That is what I said. I never said anyone specifically expecting that. If your big issue was with that little statement you need to just take a step back and chill.
Laser Gunns
11 years ago

Steven Jackson wanted to go to one and only place, Atlanta. Packers had no chance. I think it's important people understand that fact before blasting the Packers.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Looks like both were bad options [grin1]


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musccy
11 years ago

and no one is cherry picking the failed FA signings to make their point?
After seeing the same players named time and time again p2w is simply giving you names of FA success stories. I believe it was Zero, among others, who yesterday was asking who the successful FAs were.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



The Packers' two super bowl runs can in part be attributed to FA signings - Andre Rison, Sean Jones, Eugene Robinson, Woodson, and Pickett all played integral roles in those teams.

You could argue FA is a necessary role in getting a team "over the edge."

We're starting to beat the dead horse, but the issue I had with this argument is that Ted didn't try FA, or that it's as easy as we think it is. Ted's drafts and FA pick ups turned out to be great 4-7 years ago. They've been subpar the last few years along with some unlucky breaks (Worthy, Sherrod, Cobb, Hayward injuries). Does it mean the philosophy doesn't work? No, it just hasn't been very good execution of the strategy of late.
steveishere
11 years ago

The Packers' two super bowl runs can in part be attributed to FA signings - Andre Rison, Sean Jones, Eugene Robinson, Woodson, and Pickett all played integral roles in those teams.

You could argue FA is a necessary role in getting a team "over the edge."

We're starting to beat the dead horse, but the issue I had with this argument is that Ted didn't try FA, or that it's as easy as we think it is. Ted's drafts and FA pick ups turned out to be great 4-7 years ago. They've been subpar the last few years along with some unlucky breaks (Worthy, Sherrod, Cobb, Hayward injuries). Does it mean the philosophy doesn't work? No, it just hasn't been very good execution of the strategy of late.

Originally Posted by: musccy 



I don't think there's any strategy that is specifically necessary for getting a team "over the edge". You just need to get good players no matter how it's done. We've had some draft picks that didn't work out and some injurys to important players that lowered the quality of the team. It's easy to say in hindsight that we could have signed this or that player to help out but it's just as easy to say we could have signed players that would have sucked anyway and been a waste of money and resources. One thing I see is that teams that draft well tend to be the best teams no matter what they do otherwise. Our '11 draft put us in a bit of a hole IMO. I'm a little higher on our '12 draft than some around here and I think but '13 looks good too. We need another good draft this coming year and I can see a nice turnaround.
musccy
11 years ago

I don't think there's any strategy that is specifically necessary for getting a team "over the edge". You just need to get good players no matter how it's done. We've had some draft picks that didn't work out and some injurys to important players that lowered the quality of the team. It's easy to say in hindsight that we could have signed this or that player to help out but it's just as easy to say we could have signed players that would have sucked anyway and been a waste of money and resources. One thing I see is that teams that draft well tend to be the best teams no matter what they do otherwise. Our '11 draft put us in a bit of a hole IMO. I'm a little higher on our '12 draft than some around here and I think but '13 looks good too. We need another good draft this coming year and I can see a nice turnaround.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 



Vet FAs hungry for a title can provide a nice benefit, though. Woody, Eugene, and Jones all added that to those teams.

With that said, don't get me wrong, I'm a proponent for D&D, it gets you affordable depth and talent which is why Seattle is having their success. I agree with you that a good player is a good player, but I also don't think it was coincidental that some good vet FAs were part of those 2 SB runs.
wpr
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11 years ago

The Packers' two super bowl runs can in part be attributed to FA signings - Andre Rison, Sean Jones, Eugene Robinson, Woodson, and Pickett all played integral roles in those teams.

Originally Posted by: musccy 



agreed


You could argue FA is a necessary role in getting a team "over the edge."



agreed


We're starting to beat the dead horse,



agreed


but the issue I had with this argument is that Ted didn't try FA, or that it's as easy as we think it is.



I never said that and I am not sure anyone who would like to see more FAs actually said that. It was implied/assumed that that is what we said by those who say Uncle Teddy is doing enough with FAs.

See the thing is you can't get every trade you want. (Marshawn Lynch) or FAs (S Jackson) Ted tends to low ball. That is both good and bad. He can say he tried but as Zero said it takes two parties to reach an agreement. I agree in part. If you offer someone a 7th round pick or a FA the league min when the market for them will be several million a year you are not really trying to get them. You are only going through the motions.


Ted's drafts and FA pick ups turned out to be great 4-7 years ago.



a few did. Not all of them. But that is the same for Street FA s and draft picks as well.


They've been subpar the last few years along with some unlucky breaks (Worthy, Sherrod, Cobb, Hayward injuries).



yes they have. The bulk of the team should be built through the draft. The starters should predominately be draft picks. But injuries do happen. Quality FAs can make the difference between being successful and really stinking while you wait for the starters to return.


Does it mean the philosophy doesn't work? No, it just hasn't been very good execution of the strategy of late.



So then there should be a modification to the strategy if it is not working. People get upset with Mike if he doesn't make in game adjustments. Why not be upset with Ted if he doesn't make season to season adjustments?

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musccy
11 years ago
wpr - we're more or less agreeing on everything. My point about about taking issue with saying Ted hasn't tried through FA is exactly what you and Zero said. It's well known he low balled Jackson - which is good, especially after what we're seeing this year. My point is we don't know how many other FAs he pursued...he tends to try to get people for cheap. It worked for landing Saturday (even if Saturday didn't pan out, it got him here) and Woodson, for all we know he went after Avril and other FAs, we just don't hear about it.

As far as my comment about the D&D strategy, my point is that the strategy is reliant on successful talent eval (obviously). They've missed on a few lately along with those unlucky injuries/breaks. It doesn't confirm the strategy is flawed, it worked for 2010 and has built a consistently strong team since 2008. It's just that it's now apparent the talent eval hasn't been as great since 2010. I'll stop now, I'm repeating painfully obvious points that we for the most part agree on anyway.
QCHuskerFan
11 years ago
I agree with where everyone is headed. Ted Thompson did not provide starter depth 3 deep and it's because he did not delve deeply enough into FA. As if signign a few different FA would make a difference.

Looked at Denver's defense lately? Think they are winning games if Manning and Welker are out for an extended period? Think their fans are whining about depth? Of course not. They're not testing their depth.

Is Detroit leading the North if Stafford and Megatron are out for 5 games each? Who cares about their DL if those 2 are sitting?

Take the starting QB and #1 receiver from any playoff team. Then ask yourself if they would still be headed for the playoffs? Denver- Nope. Patriots- Nope. Bengals- Nope. Colts- Maybe, they lost Wayne already and their division sucks. Cowboys without Romo and Bryant- Nope. Think Seattle is 11-1 if Tarvaris Jackson had 5 starts? You get the idea.

There is too much parity in the NFL and the rosters are too small to survive injuries. It doesn't matter how you build your team if they get hurt. Lose your best player and you are probably done. Lose your best 2 or 3, you are done. Doesn't matter where the players come from.

On August 1, the Packers 3 most valuable players were QB, LT and OLB; meaning Rodgers, Bulaga, and Matthews. Those 3 have missed more than they have played. GB managed to survive Bulaga's loss. But you can't survive all 3. Throw in Cobb, who was probably #5 or #6 and Hayward at #10 or so. It's over. The fact that it technically isn't over is due to the aforementioned parity.

For those of you that insist Ted Thompson should have done more, what available FA could he have signed over the last 2 years that would have made up for losing Rodgers?
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DoddPower
11 years ago

I agree with where everyone is headed. Ted Thompson did not provide starter depth 3 deep and it's because he did not delve deeply enough into FA. As if signign a few different FA would make a difference.

Looked at Denver's defense lately? Think they are winning games if Manning and Welker are out for an extended period? Think their fans are whining about depth? Of course not. They're not testing their depth.

Is Detroit leading the North if Stafford and Megatron are out for 5 games each? Who cares about their DL if those 2 are sitting?

Take the starting QB and #1 receiver from any playoff team. Then ask yourself if they would still be headed for the playoffs? Denver- Nope. Patriots- Nope. Bengals- Nope. Colts- Maybe, they lost Wayne already and their division sucks. Cowboys without Romo and Bryant- Nope. Think Seattle is 11-1 if Tarvaris Jackson had 5 starts? You get the idea.

There is too much parity in the NFL and the rosters are too small to survive injuries. It doesn't matter how you build your team if they get hurt. Lose your best player and you are probably done. Lose your best 2 or 3, you are done. Doesn't matter where the players come from.

On August 1, the Packers 3 most valuable players were QB, LT and OLB; meaning Rodgers, Bulaga, and Matthews. Those 3 have missed more than they have played. GB managed to survive Bulaga's loss. But you can't survive all 3. Throw in Cobb, who was probably #5 or #6 and Hayward at #10 or so. It's over. The fact that it technically isn't over is due to the aforementioned parity.

For those of you that insist Ted Thompson should have done more, what available FA could he have signed over the last 2 years that would have made up for losing Rodgers?

Originally Posted by: QCHuskerFan 



I really like this post. I think the Packers would have lost most if not all of the games in which Rodgers has been out even with a "good" backup QB. Too many other injuries and overall crappy play. The team just lost it's cohesiveness once Rodgers went out, and very few are playing up to their talent level. I don't think that would be uncommon for most teams in a similar situation. At that point, it really comes down to the coach being the rock, and I'm not sure that's McCarthy's strong trait.
texaspackerbacker
11 years ago

I agree with where everyone is headed. Ted Thompson did not provide starter depth 3 deep and it's because he did not delve deeply enough into FA. As if signign a few different FA would make a difference.

Looked at Denver's defense lately? Think they are winning games if Manning and Welker are out for an extended period? Think their fans are whining about depth? Of course not. They're not testing their depth.

Is Detroit leading the North if Stafford and Megatron are out for 5 games each? Who cares about their DL if those 2 are sitting?

Take the starting QB and #1 receiver from any playoff team. Then ask yourself if they would still be headed for the playoffs? Denver- Nope. Patriots- Nope. Bengals- Nope. Colts- Maybe, they lost Wayne already and their division sucks. Cowboys without Romo and Bryant- Nope. Think Seattle is 11-1 if Tarvaris Jackson had 5 starts? You get the idea.

There is too much parity in the NFL and the rosters are too small to survive injuries. It doesn't matter how you build your team if they get hurt. Lose your best player and you are probably done. Lose your best 2 or 3, you are done. Doesn't matter where the players come from.

On August 1, the Packers 3 most valuable players were QB, LT and OLB; meaning Rodgers, Bulaga, and Matthews. Those 3 have missed more than they have played. GB managed to survive Bulaga's loss. But you can't survive all 3. Throw in Cobb, who was probably #5 or #6 and Hayward at #10 or so. It's over. The fact that it technically isn't over is due to the aforementioned parity.

For those of you that insist Ted Thompson should have done more, what available FA could he have signed over the last 2 years that would have made up for losing Rodgers?

Originally Posted by: QCHuskerFan 



The problem isn't depth. The problem is Ted Thompson did not even provide the team with quality starters - not most of the O-Line, not the D-Line, only marginally at OLB and ILB, probably not at Safety, not until this season at RB.

As for all that speculation about the Broncos, Cowboys, Seahawks, etc. going in the toilet if they lost their star QB, it's just that - speculation. It's nowhere near as clear cut as it was with the Packers.

Hopefully Rodgers does come back this week, we win out, and advance in the playoffs, but the simple fact is, a lot of people in this forum are in total denial of the inadequate job done by Ted Thompson - and it goes way beyond just backup QB.


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