I don't think it's Hayward that's the issue. I don't think the CBs have really been too bad at all even in the last couple games. It's mostly been safeties. The biggest difference I've seen is McCown and Foles are pretty much on hot streaks right now while the QBs we played before them were Flacco and Weeden who have both been having awful seasons. Hayward was in the secondary against Minnesota and they only gave up 145 yards.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 

Yeah, but Hayward has not looked anything like he did last season. I don't think anyone could have predicted that he'd hit the sophomore slump like this. He looks WAY off.

Originally Posted by: play2win 

I don't get this. He hasn't looked as good as last year but he hasn't been out there getting beat left and right or anything. He's given up 3 catches in the Chicago game and 1 each in the other 2 (only 1 catch over 10 yards). House or Tramon have been beaten much worse in those games than Hayward. He's rusty but I don't see how he can be WAY off unless he's giving up some big catches.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 

That six would be who? Raji, Datone Jones, Perry, Hawk, Matthews, and who am I missing, that's only five. Significantly, none of those five are DBs - the portion of the D that has been less bad. The front seven has stunk the worst - Raji worst of all.

My question - when deciding to blame Capers or not, is who was the prime decision maker on those draft picks? Arguably NONE of them other than Matthews was a decent pick. It's probably too soon to judge Datone as bad, maybe the same with Perry, and Hawk finally after 6 or 7 years of mediocrity is playing decent this season - still not up to the level of where he was drafted. And Raji is a big worthless lump - a disappointment if he had been drafted in the 4th round much less the 1st.

I'm convinced that the lack of interceptions and fumble recoveries this season is luck and circumstance, not anything Capers can be blamed for. The same is true of a lot of the big plays against us like that first TD yesterday. On that play, we had double coverage, but no pass rush without blitzing - because of poor quality in the front seven - what are you gonna do? You can only compensate for so much with schemes.

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 

3 years running at that. I'm kind of with Dakota. I can't see McCarthy doing it, but would not mind seeing it happen. And, as he said, that 2 man DL sh!t is for the birds… ugh. I don't ever want to see it again. I remember thinking that yesterday when I saw it, saying to myself, "why is there just Raji and Pick on the line?" Gasket/mind blown...

Originally Posted by: play2win 

I don't see why people have such a problem with the 2-4-5. That's just a basic nickle package, and is the a staple of a 3-4 defense. What else do you want? Remove Perry/Mathews from the field for another defensive linemen? Take a DB out and put in another defensive linemen? Both of those ideas have big drawbacks. If it's an issue with the timing of a nickle package call, that's one thing, but disliking a nickle defense overall just seems silly to me. It's basically the standard in the NFL these days, and might as well be the "base" package for most teams in most games. With Perry or Neal on the field, it's basically just like having three defensive linemen on the field anyway, because the distinction between LB and DL is just a matter of labeling for them. Defensive end or linebacker, it really doesn't make much difference.

Originally Posted by: DoddPower 

The problem has been and still is they do not get a consistent pass rush with only 3 down line men and another maybe two linebackers coming as well. the QB can sit there and wait for a receiver to come open. (Even the best DBs can't cover forever.) The QB if he feels some pressure can rollout and buy time waiting for the receiver to get free.

The linebackers are typically smaller and the linemen can handle them when they do come. Give me 4 fattys that collapse the pocket right back into the QB's lap and give him no time to look to his 2nd or 3rd option every single day of the week and ten times on Sunday and I will win the game more often than not.

edit-
BTW, if the DL is handing pushing the OL back I guarantee you there will be no running game up the middle either. The RB will have to try and take it wide. Then it is the LB and DB's job to shut it down. 7 professional football players SHOULD be able to tackle 1 RB for minimal gain more times than not.

Originally Posted by: wpr 

That just sounds like a complaint about personnel or winning match ups. 3-4 outside linebackers should be able to win against offensive tackles. Obviously they are not going to be as big, and I wouldn't want them to be. They are, however (or should be), more athletic, quicker, etc. Perry and Neal aren't really "smaller" than most defensive ends in a 4-3 system, anyway, and Mathews has shown that his size isn't a limitation when he's healthy.

Again, I don't think it has anything to do with the nickle defense, it's just a matter of the personnel winning their match ups. When mostly healthy, Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry is a nice nickle pass rushing defense (or some similar combination of those players). At this point, it has as much to do with health as anything else. I think this team can rush the passer when healthy, but it's going to be very difficult when basically the two top pass rushers are out of the game or only playing at ~70%.

Originally Posted by: DoddPower 

If it was something that was based on the last 3-4 even 5 weeks I would say you are correct but Dom has run the 2-4-5 for 4 years and I have not seen much success from it in any season outside an occasional play or 2 in a game. Have you seen it as a consistently successful formation down after down week in and week out year after year after year?

again edit- If there are "personnel issues" whose fault is that? Uncle Teddy first, Mike 2nd and DC Capers third in line. If he doesn't have the proper personnel then don't run that formation. It s not going to work is it?

Originally Posted by: wpr 

I don't see why people have such a problem with the 2-4-5. That's just a basic nickle package, and is the a staple of a 3-4 defense. What else do you want? Remove Perry/Mathews from the field for another defensive linemen? Take a DB out and put in another defensive linemen? Both of those ideas have big drawbacks. If it's an issue with the timing of a nickle package call, that's one thing, but disliking a nickle defense overall just seems silly to me. It's basically the standard in the NFL these days, and might as well be the "base" package for most teams in most games. With Perry or Neal on the field, it's basically just like having three defensive linemen on the field anyway, because the distinction between LB and DL is just a matter of labeling for them. Defensive end or linebacker, it really doesn't make much difference.

Originally Posted by: DoddPower 

What makes me scratch my head. When we don't get pressure and the QB has time, it never fails that a WR/TE will come open across the middle. 8-15 yards deep, behind the LBers and in front of our Safeties. Yet, when Rodgers is in the pocket with time, we don't seem to have the same, we seem to always have our receivers at the sidelines.

The question is, is that a difference in offensive strategy in scramble drills, or is it designed for that to be against our defense because that is one of the weak spots.

There are two traditional weak spots in our passing defense, the 10-15 yard area across the board both on edges and middle. But how do we stop it? The best way is to get pressure so the routes don't have to develop into that area. As far as coverage what can we do?

Drop LBers deeper in the middle, seems all that would do is open up the short crossing routes.

Personally, I think this also goes back to not having Nick Collins deep. He had the speed to cover sideline to sideline and could be left deep by himself. Now we have to run more 2 deep or shared deep responsibility making the entire middle softer.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 

Personally, I think this also goes back to not having Nick Collins deep. He had the speed to cover sideline to sideline and could be left deep by himself. Now we have to run more 2 deep or shared deep responsibility making the entire middle softer.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 

We are down a number of LBs due to injury. What else do I want? How about flexing to a 4-3? We have the DL healthy enough for this. Makes perfect sense. I don't see why Dom doesn't go to this more often. Where is Josh Boyd?

From what I've seen, GB in a 2-4-5 is and has been, for years, very, very ineffective. That's why I don't want to see it anymore. We need pass rush. Our secondary is getting killed without getting more pressure on a consistent basis. Raji, Picket, Jolly and Wilson have combined to make 1 sack on the season. One. Jolly. Datone has 3. Daniels 4.5. Through 9 games.

Only 2 INTs by our secondary (Shields and House with one each). As a team, our defense is dead last in the NFL in INTs with 3. To me, that points to a lack of pressure, and all I see when we go to a 2-4-5 is a lack of pressure on the opposing QB.

Originally Posted by: play2win 

I don't think Jolly, Pickett, Boyd, or Wilson would improve the pass rush, at all. In fact, it would probably make it worse. Those players offer very little in the pass rushing department. Raji has the ability, but disappears for long stretches. That only leaves a combination of Raji/Daniels/Jones as pass rushing defensive linemen. The Packers best pass rushers are Clay Mathews, Nick Perry, and probably Neal, although he might be tied with Daniels, at this point. Therefore, when healthy, I would want Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry on the field on passing downs, which is what happens when those players are healthy. Raji is exchangeable with any other player, and hopefully Datone Jones pushes him out of the sub-packages.

You may not like the Packers pass rushing options, but that's the best they have to offer at this point, imo. The Packers have a lot of defensive linemen, but only really one or two that are actually effective with their pass rush. Adding more space eating run-stuffing players to the field on passing downs doesn't sound like it would help things at all.

With that being said, I agree with you that more creativity would be nice. I would love to see a combination of a 4-3/3-4 defense, especially on early downs. I've wanted something like that for years now, but it rarely happens. I don't find Capers very creative at all. He has some interesting looking blitzes, but most of them have become relatively familiar to opposing defenses.

Either way, the key to the pass rush is getting Mathews and Perry fully healthy. Otherwise, let's hope to reload in the off season, I guess.

EDIT: Perhaps Worthy will come back at some point, too. He probably wouldn't be effective this season anyway, but he certainly has/had the potential to be a good pass rusher in the middle. It's worth a shot. He'd probably provide more value than some of the other fringe players.

Originally Posted by: DoddPower