DakotaT
11 years ago
We all owe our current labor laws to unions. What always bothered me about either auditing businesses or preparing their taxes is the complaining of the customer that would go along with the tax bill. And I would always comment that one way the business owner could escape paying so much tax is to compensate their employees better in either wages or benefits. And in almost every situation they felt they were overcompensating their employees already. And this is the fundamental flaw in thinking that brings about poor company moral and a total breakdown in the American workforce. People want security, and our current business model is not providing that anymore and this is plain and simply chalked up to that abomination called greed.
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texaspackerbacker
11 years ago

We all owe our current labor laws to unions. What always bothered me about either auditing businesses or preparing their taxes is the complaining of the customer that would go along with the tax bill. And I would always comment that one way the business owner could escape paying so much tax is to compensate their employees better in either wages or benefits. And in almost every situation they felt they were overcompensating their employees already. And this is the fundamental flaw in thinking that brings about poor company moral and a total breakdown in the American workforce. People want security, and our current business model is not providing that anymore and this is plain and simply chalked up to that abomination called greed.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



It didn't even occur to you that maybe they WERE over-compensating their employees? It should also occur to you that the main aspect of the current business model that is unstable or insecure is employee cost. Part of that, of course, is the damn government with its OSHA and other intrusive regulation, but a large part of it is unions who go way beyond just negotiating for higher pay; They are more than willing to kill the whole process by failing to compromise to the point of bankrupting the business - like the Twinkie/Hostess example.

Yeah, I give unions a LOT of credit historically for forcing the labor laws and for basically creating the strong comfortable working class that sets this country apart from almost everywhere else in the world. But in the last half century or so, two things have happened: the unions have been co-opted by leftist politicians - even on the payroll of the big unions AND unions have gone beyond the bounds of reason to the point where companies simply can't afford to compete if they have union labor. I suppose that sword cuts both ways, and the companies using non-union workers are partly to blame, but it seems a lot more American to let choice and the law of supply and demand prevail rather than having laws forcing workers to be unionized - or do you disagree about that?


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If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Pack93z
11 years ago
The Unions at one point most definitely helped shape labor laws and had a proper place in the labor pool. But they also got lazy and focused on protecting all workers under the umbrella (IE the lazy); not to mention mismanagement of the union funds; lost most of their credibility and have become nothing but an albatross around the productive workers neck.

Like it or not, the surplus of potential employees has allowed the leverage to shift to the employers at the moment. And unless the dynamic swings back to the employee and cost based sense for the number cruncher's shows that the American work can compete in the labor costs, I don't see it returning to the employees favor anytime soon. Select trades still hold leverage.. but for the majority of factor laborers, there is zero leverage for the most part.

Several factors lead into this from my viewpoint:

- The general work ethic of the American worker has declined.
- The upper management is retaining a larger slice of the profits generated.
- Insurance costs have become unmanageable in terms of cost, and before it is all blamed on Obama, this trend dates back to right around the turn of the century, if not before.
- Importing products crafted with cheaper labor is too cost incentive at the moment, part of the "bad" of a free trade market. $$ rule.
- Economy struggles and the notion that every citizen "has" to own a house.
- Generally, we in America have to own more than we really need and many because they are in competition with thy neighbor.

I am sure we could list dozens more.. but you get the point.

I certainly cannot absolve the fat cats at the top... but they are not the only dynamic causing the problem.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
texaspackerbacker
11 years ago
Good Analysis, pack93. What gets lost in this whole discussion, it seems to me, is that workers - like everybody in this country - have it pretty damn good compared to the rest of the world, compared to historic levels of living standards, etc. A lot of complaint DOESN'T come from the workers themselves, but from the unions - who don't like it that in so many cases, the workers got that well off without unionization. Just look at Walmart hahahaha.

One thing you said that concerns me - maybe because I used to be in the real estate business. It is NOT a bad thing that virtually all workers strive to be homeowners. Historically, and nowadays more than ever, owning a home is cheaper for the same quality level than renting. It seemed to me you were implying that striving for ownership was not a good thing.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Zero2Cool
11 years ago

- The general work ethic of the American worker has declined.

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 



I credit Unions for this, and also the decline (my opinion) in parenting properly.
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texaspackerbacker
11 years ago

I credit Unions for this, and also the decline (my opinion) in parenting properly.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



The former I agree; The latter is kinda a stretch hahahaha.


Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Pack93z
11 years ago


One thing you said that concerns me - maybe because I used to be in the real estate business. It is NOT a bad thing that virtually all workers strive to be homeowners. Historically, and nowadays more than ever, owning a home is cheaper for the same quality level than renting. It seemed to me you were implying that striving for ownership was not a good thing.

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



It is not a bad thing to "strive to" own one.. but many that do shouldn't do to their financial situation or that they buy "too much" house and cannot afford it.

That is my view upon it.. even I a financial conservative think I probably extended to far, even though my house is modest and the land was owned for years. But I am a mostly a tightwad in my aging days, lol.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
11 years ago

I credit Unions for this, and also the decline (my opinion) in parenting properly.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



when I worked in a factory (while in college) I saw the laziest people that I had ever met, to that point in my life. I worked in 3 different plants over the four years and saw the same mentality in different people. That was, "You can't fire me I am a union member and I will file a grievance and tie this up with the lawyers." That is not just the factory or blue collar workers, college professors, with tenor would express that same thing. Granted the professors would not sneak into the back warehouse and sleep during their shift like several blues did. They did not walk out the back door with merchandise or tools like many of my fellow workers did. They simply didn't not care to instruct the students to the best of their abilities. Many required the students to purchase books that they authored. (Some of them were the worst written and least instructive I have ever picked up.)


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wpr
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11 years ago

It is not a bad thing to "strive to" own one.. but many that do shouldn't do to their financial situation or that they buy "too much" house and cannot afford it.

That is my view upon it.. even I a financial conservative think I probably extended to far, even though my house is modest and the land was owned for years. But I am a mostly a tightwad in my aging days, lol.

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 



Back in the late 80's my younger brother and I were leaving Peoria after a meeting and heading back home. We drove past homes were Caterpillar employees lived. I asked my brother what was different about these houses than the ones in our town. He couldn't see any difference. I pointed out that almost every home had 3 or more cars. While some homes in our town did, most of them didn't. Over 75% of the homes had boats, 4 wheelers, snowmobiles or campers as well.

I don't mind it if they have all those toys. They were right along the river and it is more than common to have such things. But my point is that a greater number of people in the stretch between Peoria and Henry,IL which is about 25 miles long, have an over abundance of toys than in other areas of Illinois at that time. The common factor was the Cat plant. Cat was still King in those days and most everyone worked for them.

If they had saved up and paid cash more power to them. Being in insurance it was my experience that the majority of them did not. Banks were more than willing in those days to loan money.
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texaspackerbacker
11 years ago
A lot of good points being made in this thread.

Yeah, when I was in real estate, I wish I had a commission for every buyer who failed to qualify because they wanted more house than the mortgage company said they had income for. And most who did get houses were at the upper limit.

Regarding toys, whether on credit or not, to me that is a sign of workers making good income. We would be wrong to begrudge them that just as it's wrong for Dakota to begrudge business owners healthy profits. Somebody else's good fortune has NO bad effect on one's own situation. That's my nice side talking hahahaha.

Now for my not so nice side: what I SHOULD have said regarding work ethic is that it is an oxymoron. Work is a damn four letter word, and there is nothing ethical about it. The relationship between employer and employee is ADVERSARIAL - the worker does the least and worst he can get away with for the most money he can squeeze out of the boss. Conversely, the boss works the employee's ass off for as little pay as he can get away with giving him. Of course, most people on both sides of that situation are too nice to stick the knife in to the hilt, but that's the nature of the relationship. It's the same with landlord/tenant, policy holder/insurance company, creditor/borrower, etc. Dakota talked about the "abomination of greed"; No - greed is the norm. A bunch of individuals acting in their own greedy self interest will result in maximization of the common good for everybody. That's the theory anyway hahahahaha.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Fan Shout
dfosterf (5m) : Nobody coming up with a keep, but at x amount
dfosterf (5m) : Trade, cut or keep
dfosterf (1h) : that from Jaire
dfosterf (1h) : My guess is the Packers floated the concept of a reworked contract via his agent and agent got a f'
Zero2Cool (1h) : Yes, and that is why I think Rob worded it how he did. Rather than say "agent"
dfosterf (1h) : Same laws apply. Agent must present such an offer to Jaire. Cannot accept or reject without presenting it
Zero2Cool (1h) : I'm thinking that is why Rob worded it how he did.
dfosterf (1h) : The Packers can certainly still make the offer to the agent
dfosterf (1h) : Laws of agency and definition of fiduciary responsibility
dfosterf (1h) : Jaire is open to a reduced contract without Jaire's permission
dfosterf (1h) : The agent would arguably violate the law if he were to tell the Packers
Zero2Cool (1h) : That someone ... likely the agent.
Zero2Cool (1h) : So, Jaire has not been offered nor rejected a pay reduction, but someone says he'd decline.
Zero2Cool (1h) : Demovksy says t was direct communication with someone familiar with Jaire’s line of thinking at that moment.
Zero2Cool (2h) : Demovsky just replied to me a bit ago. Jaire hasn't said it.
dfosterf (3h) : Of course, that depends on the definition of "we"
dfosterf (3h) : We have been told that they haven't because he wouldn't accept it. I submit we don't know that
dfosterf (3h) : What is the downside in making a calculated reduced offer to Jaire?
Zero2Cool (19h) : Packers are receiving interest in Jaire Alexander but a trade is not imminent
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Jalen Ramsey wants to be traded. He's never happy is he?
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : two 1sts in 2022 and two 2nd's in 2023 and 2024
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Packers had fortunate last three drafts.
dfosterf (15-Apr) : I may have to move
dfosterf (15-Apr) : My wife just told the ancient Japanese sushi dude not enough rice under his fish
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : I think a dozen is what I need
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Go fund me for this purpose just might work. A dozen nurses show up at 1265 to provide mental health assistance.
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Maybe send a crew of Angels to the Packers draft room on draft day.
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : I am the Angel that gets visited.
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Visiting Angels has a pretty good reputation
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : what
Martha Careful (14-Apr) : WINNING IT, not someone else losing it. The best victory though was re-uniting with his wife
Martha Careful (14-Apr) : The manner in which he won it was just amazing and wonderful. First blowing the lead then getting back, then blowing it. But ultimately
Zero2Cool (12-Apr) : I'm guessing since the thumb was broken, he wasn't feeling it.
dfosterf (10-Apr) : Looking for guidance. Not feeling the thumb.
Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : If they knew about it or not
Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : I don't recall that he did which is why I asked.
Zero2Cool (10-Apr) : Guessing they probably knew. Did he have cast or something on?
Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : Did they know that at the time or was that something the realized afterwards?
Zero2Cool (9-Apr) : Van Ness played most of season with broken thumb
wpr (9-Apr) : yay
Zero2Cool (9-Apr) : Mark Murphy says Steelers likely to protect Packers game. Meaning, no Ireland
Zero2Cool (8-Apr) : Struggling to figure out what text editor options are needed and which are 'nice to have'
Mucky Tundra (8-Apr) : *CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP*
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : WR who said he'd break Xavier Worthy 40 time...and ran slower than you
Mucky Tundra (2-Apr) : Who?
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : Texas’ WR Isaiah Bond is scheduled to visit the Bills, Browns, Chiefs, Falcons, Packers and Titans starting next week.
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : Spotting ball isn't changing, only measuring distance is, Which wasn't the issue.
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : The spotting of the ball IS the issue. Not the chain gang.
Mucky Tundra (2-Apr) : Will there be a tracker on the ball or something?
Zero2Cool (1-Apr) : uh oh
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