This is the reason I actually like posting on forums like this. Most people are realistic and not the "FIRE MCCARTHY AND FIRE Ted Thompson FOR THIS TERRIBLE TEAM!" crap I see on packersnews and jsonline.

We definitely should not fire them this year, but there is going to have to be some improvement starting next year or the pitch forks will probably start coming out in much greater force than they are now.

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Wow. I can't believe what I'm reading. I mean I'll be happy to see someone prove me wrong, but at least hear me out here. Let me recall how we've lost some of our recent games here..

- Panthers, we played great vs one of the best, if not the best, in the NFC. But we couldn't score from the 1 yard line with the game tied late in the game. Then we kicked the field goal that I knew was suicide vs. the Panthers offense. And sure enough it turned out worse than I thought, we not only gave up 3 points, but we gave up 7 to lose in regulation. So what's to blame, Bad playcalling? Bad decision making? Or bad players..

- Texans, we play horrible all game, but thanks to some great defense forcing turnovers and a great drive led by Aaron Rodgers, we tie the game late. Then we get another big play that takes us all the way into field goal range. But from there, we go backwards with penalties and such. Then on 3rd and long, we can't even pick up enough yards to get back into feild goal range. Bad playcalling? Bad coaching (penalties)? Or bad players...so we punt the ball and lose the game

- Vikings, we play horrible all game yet again, but through some miraculous plays by our defense and our special punt returner mr. blackman, we somehow grab a 27-21 lead. Then came Minnesota's drive...
3 straight plays to Adrian Peterson
"You know coach, they're giving it to Adrian every play, maybe we should concentrate on stopping him?"
"Nonsense, they can't keep doing that with this much time left"
3 more plays to Adrian Peterson
"You know coach, we should concider concentrating on him"
"Nonsense, they have to throw the ball eventually"
4 more plays to Adrian Peterson, and he scores a TD
"Oh darn!"

But we still had plenty of time left. And sure enough in 2 plays, a great kick return and a nice pass over the middle and we're already at the 35 with plenty of time left. In fact, so much time left, we had enough time to go for the touchdown rather than risk the field goal. But instead, we attempt to run out the clock, wind up losing a few yards, and Super Kicker can't make the 54 yarder. So what's to blame, playcalling? Players? Would you even blame Super Kicker!?! =o

- Saints, after whooping the Bears, Mike McCarthy calls his team "consistent" more than anything else. (First of all we were 5-5, and thats as inconsistent as you can be). McCarthy seemed as if the upcoming game against the lowly Saints was going to be won handly. So we go from allowing 3 points one week to 51 the next week. Real consistent. And in fact we haven't won a game since.

Let me recall how we've won some of our more recent games as well..

- Bears, if I remember right our defense was unstoppable and we forced a few nice turnovers to crush them for the first time at Lambeau in years.

- Colts, if I remember right our defense returned 2 Manning passes for touchdowns for an unforgttable win, and oh by the way held the Colts to just 7 points until their final drive.

- Seahawks and Lions suck...they're 2 of only 3 teams with a worse record than us in the NFC. And if I remember right, we nearly blew it against the Lions, only until our defense came away with not 1, not 2, but 3 interceptions in the final 8 minutes or so. 2 returned for touchdowns, and 1 that led to a touchdown soon afterwards. Hmm

Seems to me our defense, which takes a lot of the blame, is what's gotten us 5 wins in the 1st place. In fact, they are the reason they even kept us in some of the games we lost.

It also seems to me that we do the same exacty thing every single week. That's why we won week 1 and week 2. But since then, we've gone 3-9. It's because the teams we play know exactly what we are going to do. And on top of that, we typically never had a good gameplan against the team we were playing. Let me explain...

- We NEVER run a trick play. EVER. The only trick play if you could even call it that was the 1st play vs. the Vikings. Where we let Donald Driver run the ball on the 1st play of the game. But since the Vikings knew we were going to run the ball anyway, we lost 2 yards. Go figure. While other teams are running Wildhog formations, we're doing nothing whatsoever.
- We hardly ever throw the ball deep. Now, I could understand this in some circumstances, but come on - It seems like when we DO throw the ball deep, it works a good percentage of the time! (Except at the end of the game when we're desperate and losing, but that's besides the point). We've gone weeks without throwing the ball deep ONE TIME over the course of this season. And it doesn't make any sense. We've got a QB with an arm. Playmakers at wide reciever. It works when we do try it. I just don't get it.
- Why not mix up Ryan Grant and Brandon Jackson. Honestly, in the few times Jackson has gotten the ball, he's looked a whole lot better than Grant. I mean sure, Jackson doesn't deserve to start, but neither does Grant anymore frankly. Grant just looks like he does the same thing every time, and it's working less and less as time goes on. I mean, it's not like no one in the league mixes up 2 running backs, in fact most teams do it.

We're simply way too predictable. Those times when I said "We played horrible all game," were, in my opinion, a result of our predictability. Coaches fault or players fault?

And oh by the way we have the same team we had last year except for 3 players that Ted Thompson thought were unworthy anymore. Brett Favre, not like he was a legend or anything. He wasn't much of a leader was he, Aaron Rodgers easily replaced him there. This team just looks full of leaders. And in the final 2 minutes with the game on the line, why in the world would we want Favre. I mean the lack of Favre has kind of hit now don't you think? Don't get me wrong, I love Aaron Rodgers. Give him some time and he'll be great one day. Just like the Mannings. Barring any injuries of course, we'll see how that turns out. Let's see who else, Corey Williams of course. Because our run defense is just so amazing without him. Remember the Adrian Peterson drive? And last but not least, John Ryan. One bad game against the Bears in which BRETT FAVRE said was "The worst weather he ever played in." (And oh by the way, Favre only completed something like 2 passes in the first half) And he's out the door. Man, don't you remember when sometimes he could just BOOM a punt like 65 yards? Of course I wouldn't complain if the guy we got was better. But the guy we got turned out to be a total disaster. And sure enough, he didn't even make it through the season.

Ted Thompson's fault? Or other backups and rookies who couldn't step it up and replace them?

The offensive just seems poorly prepared and badly playcalled all season as well. Notice how the few times Rodgers decides to audible, it works out very well? Clearly the previous play called was bad. I remember Favre would aurible all the time, more than you might recall if you think about it. The most memorable may have been right before he threw the TD pass vs. Minnesota to break Marino's record. Seems like Favre was dodging bad playcalling more than we thought. Seems like he threw it deep for the hell of it sometimes that made us say "what are you doing?" But at the same time, he could hit Jennings in OT on Monday Night in Denver to win it all. Seems like Brett Favre was the one veteran on a team full of youth that led them to greatness. And it seems to me, that Brett Favre is more greatly missed than even originally thought. And he, in more ways that one, was the reason we were good last year.

But Ted Thompson didn't see any of that. Well actually, I think he did see it. But Winston Churchill said it best - "Men occasionally stumble across the truth. But most of them pick themselves up, and hurry off as if nothing happened." And Mike McCarhty supported anything and evertying Ted did every step of the way.

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i'm amazed at your "inside information" about exactly what went on during each & every game on the sidelines as well as what happened behind closed doors. you MUST be the proverbial fly on the wall.

I'm not defending the decision to cut John Ryan, but in Thompson's defense, I will say that plenty of (probably shortsighted, as usual) fans were screaming for Ryan's head after last season, branding him "inconsistent" and worse. Then after the Derrick Frost debacle, they suddenly got all nostalgic for the good old days.

I don't agree with everything you said, but I am rather in awe of the depth and breadth of your dissertation.

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There's an evil little cynic of a gnome somewhere inside me that wonders how many of 4PackGirl's 45 Applause points have been won on the merits of this amazing pair of boobs:




Oo. :eyeslam:

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Go with what you got, I always say.

The firing of Ted and Mike would give many some immediate satisfaction. Some of that satisfaction would be reflective of a sincere belief that this move would improve our team. I submit most of the satisfaction by many would be pure, unadulterated schadenfruede.

Those that continue to demand their termination need to either learn or remember a couple of things. Brett Favre, for example, would have had a very difficult time surviving as the starting quarterback of just about any other team in the NFL. The key to Brett having been allowed to flourish into the legend he has become was the patience of the fan base. That patience wasn't due to some superior moral fiber ingrained in the people of Wisconsin.

The patience was borne of the 28 year drought. Those that lived through it understand this statement to the degree that those that did not will never fully understand or appreciate. We lived through a time when the color of a player's skin had to be factored heavily into the ability of Green Bay to secure his services. It was a time when the threat of "shipping your ass to Green Bay" was used by other team's coaches to motivate underperforming players. We paid a heavy toll for the fact that Green Bay is a small market, a small town, and lacked, for want of a better term, a cosmopolitan population. The long story short, we were grateful for what we got, because it was so hard to get what we needed. Reggie White was what saved the franchise, (at least as a contender) and he did it BEFORE HE EVER PLAYED A DOWN for us.

Nobody gets a free pass, especially coaches and management. Personally, I am glad for the unique structure of this team. This structure prevents emotionally charged reactionary moves by some rich primadonna that perceives himself as "giving the fans what they need". You can disagree...for example, there would be a MUCH greater liklihood of Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy getting shit-canned this year were that the structure in place here.

The anti-TT/MM folk seem very vocal.

Wisdom is a mostly quiet avocation. It is also the most difficult and expensive one known to man.

Wisdom has little to do with intellect, btw. Those that are perceived by others (and themselves) as "real smart", or (God help them) "real bright" seem to have the toughest time achieving the "gift". The lucky ones get it through the experience of others, most by hard - won - lessons. I'm still working on it, my old man has it, and when I get it, I'll probably be the only one to know it...nature of the beast.

Chew on this adage:

"The difference between a moron and a complete moron is the fact that a moron has an inkling that he is a moron...a complete moron has no clue."

I like that, and I'm a friggin' moron. :thumbleft:

Das htte ich nicht besser sagen knnen! (I couldn't have said it any better myself!)



Yet how few people realize this anymore. Our memories are so short. It's a known fact, however, that even Holmgren was sorely tempted to bench him at times, and it could be argued that it would have been better to do so for the good of the team. There were times Favre was incredible, but there were also times he was astoundingly bad.



In short, Green Bay fans were desperate, and because they were so desperate, they seized upon any glimmer of hope that might return the franchise to its glory years. Favre was better than anything they had seen in a good long while, so even though his downsides were HUGE and didn't always counterbalance his upsides, fans bore with him, and in a strange form of Stockholm Syndrome, came to idolize him far out of proportion to his achievements. Not even the quarterbacks who have three or four Superbowl rings enjoy the kind of adulation Favre has. And many of them achieved success before the rule changes that turned the NFL into a passing game. Favre has feasted on conditions that have enabled to shatter longstanding passing records. But fans attributed it solely to intrinsic greatness, failing to discern the other factors in play.



Which would do nothing but guarantee a cycle of mediocrity as the franchise was kept constantly in transition. Over on the forums at Scout.com, people are claiming the Packers have a tradition of canning coaches for non-winning seasons (Sherman, Rhodes), and they're vocally advocating for the sentence to be handed down upon Mike McCarthy. I personally think it's stupid that we canned Rhodes after a single 8-8 season or Sherman after a 4-12. Every team, every coach, every general manager has cycles. The great teams demonstrate courage, prudence and patience through the booms and the busts -- neither getting too excited during the booms nor panicking during the busts -- to attain sustained success. Great example: the Steelers' organization.



Profound. And fabulously articulated. I had to catch my breath when I read that. +1 for you, sir.



Or as Socrates supposedly said, "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." Chew on THAT mouthful for a moment.

At least I can take comfort in the fact that by Socrates' standard, I'm a veritable sage. :joker:

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Uh, Mike Sherman basically put his nose up in the air to Thompson once he was replaced as GM to a point where even after the endorsement of an extension Thomspon felt Shermans well documented IN-ability to work with others was too detrimental to keep him.

So there is a lot more to do with making courageous decisions to hold the fort than just keeping faith through a "down" cycle. I, for one, thought it took more courage to can the guy than it would have taken to keep him.

You can get all up into the deepest inner cells of your brain you can find and the bottom line is still as simple as third grade math. We are the youngest team in the NFL and lost a butt-load of last second games that last year we somehow found a way to win.

There's no reason to think we can't reload after this and go out next year and kick everybody in the North Divisions rear end and go from there and I didn't need to read Einstein to help me figure that out.

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Nonstop said:

" Das htte ich nicht besser sagen knnen "


I say:

Right back at you. Expanded upon what I was trying to say better than I ever could.


+ 1 doesn't do it justice, but like 4packgirl's sig, it's what I have to offer.

Well i can understand what most of you are trying to get at here. One bad season doesn't mean you have to fire everyone. And you know what, I can agree with that. I think it's awesome what the Steelers did, and it would be awesome if we could do something like that as well.

But everything is still an opinion. There should not be an automatic rule to just fire someone after 1 bad season. Nor should there be an automatic rule to keep someone after 1 bad season, which I think most of you are hooked on. But one thing is obvious - something has to change somewhere, or there will be no improvement next season. Personally, I think the talent is there. I think if we give Aaron Rodgers time, he will be very very good. He already has proven himself, I think he's done fantastic for his FIRST season and will clearly only get better (as long as he stays off that IR!). It's very very difficult for me to say that our players need to change much. In fact I'm very fearful that our genius's at the helm will get rid of some of our decent players for less that average personnel and drive this team deeper and deeper into the cellar. The only thing I really see missing is a team leader. Maybe Aaron will be that man someday, I donno, we'll see. As of right now, some fresh members of the coaching staff might do us some good.

I don't remember a lot of close games last year, I remember a lot of blowouts, including in the playoffs. And in a lot of the close games this year we were very lucky to not have been blown out. And come on, we deserved to lose most of those games.

As for John Ryan I don't care what you all say, I was upset when we cut him!!! I didn't think too much of it for long, mainly because I trusted that our guys made the right decision and got a better man, or equally as good, man. And then I just got really pissed off when I realized how bad they fucked up with that one

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