Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
12 years ago

Sorry man, I don't live in a fantasy world where our country's economics is left up to human kindness, because I don't believe there is enough of it to make it work.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



The possibility of DakotaT being correct on this is why "charitable contributions" remains my only "tax deduction." It's also why I chose my tax rate of 10% -- tax to me is justified only if we justify it as a sort of secular tithe. I do believe we have a moral obligation to those less fortunate and I also agree that people can't be relied on to satisfy that moral obligation on their own. They don't have to give to a particulasarc charity, but they must be charitable to some degree.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Pack93z
12 years ago

Primary requirement: Only spend on activities for which the government actor has a comparative advantage (i.e. can do it better, at a lower opportunity cost, than any market actor could).

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Here is my issue with Market based "actors".

They have and will always have one primary agenda, turning a profit. Which then brings in a ethical question and in many cases no checks to keep them in balance.

Example. Red Cross.

They have noble intentions, however without a paying customer base, there is no check system in place to ensure that their primary objectives as a organization are kept in line. Hence we have a organization that actually utilizes incoming funds very poorly for their intended purpose. Helping people.

Now imagine if they were under a contract of sorts to provide those services.. they would be performing as poorly as some of the government programs do.

Again, in my eyes, we need to kick the government back into what they should be and not what they are. A non biased, public servant for the good of the people, all people. Not just those that can afford to contribute to the campaign machines.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
12 years ago

Here is my issue with Market based "actors".

They have and will always have one primary agenda, turning a profit. Which then brings in a ethical question and in many cases no checks to keep them in balance.

Example. Red Cross.

They have noble intentions, however without a paying customer base, there is no check system in place to ensure that their primary objectives as a organization are kept in line. Hence we have a organization that actually utilizes incoming funds very poorly for their intended purpose. Helping people.

Now imagine if they were under a contract of sorts to provide those services.. they would be performing as poorly as some of the government programs do.

Again, in my eyes, we need to kick the government back into what they should be and not what they are. A non biased, public servant for the good of the people, all people. Not just those that can afford to contribute to the campaign machines.

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 



Yes, but if you give the task to someone who can't do it as cheaply, you're also using your funds poorly. IMO the Red Cross wouldn't be able to get away with their inefficiency were they subject to the market constraints that those evil profit-seekers would. Because they'd either fix things or they'd be bankrupt.

The problem isn't profit-seeking. The problem is profit-seeking combined with government-instituted insulation from the bad consequences of their choices: in the case of the Red Cross, that insulation comes from their tax-reducing status as a not-for-profit; in the case of the current for-profit corporations, it is the protection offered by limited shareholder liability and an unlimited lifespan.

That's why the absolute requirement has to be "only if they have an actual comparative advantage." And why any grant of power to the state must NOT be accompanied with insulation from civil liability. Because acting through the state ALWAYS yields insulation of the decision-maker from market constraints otherwise. Always.

Noble intentions are never enough. That's why DakotaT's position, while noble as aspirations and showing him to be as compassionate as anyone can be, the kind of person one wants as a friend and neighbor and fellow citizen, is wrong. Noble intentions alone merely pave the way to hell. Because, unfortunately, whether one is in the private sector or the public one, there are far too many people who don't share his moral character, people who, if you insulate them from the consequences of their choices will make bad choices.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
12 years ago
I think we should give all our money to the government and trust that they will take care of us from the cradle to the grave.
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DakotaT
12 years ago

I think we should give all our money to the government and trust that they will take care of us from the cradle to the grave.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



You forgot your sarcasm smiley! [grin1]
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wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
12 years ago

You forgot your sarcasm smiley! [grin1]

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



no I did not. You and all your government dependent friends have convinced me. I was wrong to fight the inevitable for so long. It is what the people want so give it to them.
UserPostedImage
DakotaT
12 years ago

no I did not. You and all your government dependent friends have convinced me. I was wrong to fight the inevitable for so long. It is what the people want so give it to them.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



It has to work better than trickle down economics.
UserPostedImage
PackFanWithTwins
12 years ago

Primary requirement: Only spend on activities for which the government actor has a comparative advantage (i.e. can do it better, at a lower opportunity cost, than any market actor could).

First example: Various "security" and "war" services: Marines, Army, Navy, Air Force combat personnel. Coast Guard search and rescue. The uniformed beat cop. Fire departments. Criminal court. Border control to prevent entry of criminals and infectious diseases.

Does not include such things such as REMF functions, police detectives, or anyone or any function provided bye the so-called "Department of Homeland Security". Does not include enforcers of "limit immigration" laws.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



I primarily agree, but differ slightly. Government should only supply what private sector cannot, like a national military, interstate system. And much of that, federal government should be more of a coordinator of the states instead of provider. Everything else should be provided by the private sector, cost is never really an issue. There is no reason government can do anything cheaper, and even if there was, even if more expensive, it would be generating revenue and expand the tax base.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
DakotaT
12 years ago

no I did not. You and all your government dependent friends have convinced me. I was wrong to fight the inevitable for so long. It is what the people want so give it to them.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



I don't have any government dependent friends. All my friends are just like you momolucs. And like all of you, none of them have had a life altering crisis with their child that have made them re-evaluate everything. Needing all the toys and bells and whistles is just not important anymore - and voting for the assholes that make sure a small percentage of our country has all those things is not something I'm on board with anymore - but I once was.


UserPostedImage
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
12 years ago

I don't have any government dependent friends. All my friends are just like you momolucs. And like all of you, none of them have had a life altering crisis with their child that have made them re-evaluate everything. Needing all the toys and bells and whistles is just not important anymore - and voting for the assholes that make sure a small percentage of our country has all those things is not something I'm on board with anymore - but I once was.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



agreed. I could care less about the crap people collect. If I had my way we would all live without 3/4 of the stuff we have. and be far better off for it.
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