Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago
If it's obviously wrong, then why does it need to be made into a crime? And why does the government need to punish it?

Committing adultery is wrong. That doesn't mean the government needs to get involved.
UserPostedImage
nerdmann
13 years ago

If it's obviously wrong, then why does it need to be made into a crime? And why does the government need to punish it?

Committing adultery is wrong. That doesn't mean the government needs to get involved.

Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 



Intentionally injuring someone is already a crime. I'd look closer at this to see if there was an effort to rig games via injury.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago
Yes, except that if a sport has been legally ruled a full-contact sport, there is no liability or injuries sustained in the course of a game, at least not in Wisconsin. That is why cheerleading injury claims are dismissed in Wisconsin courts -- the sport was ruled a full-contact sport.
UserPostedImage
Porforis
13 years ago

If it's obviously wrong, then why does it need to be made into a crime? And why does the government need to punish it?

Committing adultery is wrong. That doesn't mean the government needs to get involved.

Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 



That logic in and of itself can be used to argue that nothing should be a crime.
zombieslayer
13 years ago

Intentionally injuring someone is already a crime. I'd look closer at this to see if there was an effort to rig games via injury.

Originally Posted by: nerdmann 



Yes, it is rigging games if you intentionally physically knock out the key players. Imagine if opposing teams tried to take out Joe Montana and Jerry Rice via injury in the 80s. The turn outs would have been very different.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

to be fair i was irritated reading that as well, until i read this:

“After consulting with Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy and Crime Subcommittee Chairman Sheldon Whitehouse, I will convene a hearing to explore the prevalence of this bounty practice and determine whether existing sports bribery laws should be expanded to include a prohibition on bounties.”

and this:

“Let’s be real basic about it here,” Senator Durbin told Howard Fendrich of the Associated Press. “If this activity were taking place off of a sporting field, away from a court, nobody would have a second thought [about whether it's wrong]. ‘You mean, someone paid you to go out and hurt someone?’

both are pretty good points as to why the government is considered getting involved

Originally Posted by: gbguy20 



Yes and no.

Yes in the sense that the feds now get involved in anything they think is worth getting involved with.

No in the sense that this should be a federal matter. If we're talking about anti-trust law, that's one thing; its sort of the classic justification for legislative intervention, i.e., the commerce clause of Article I.

However, assault and the solicitation of same -- these are matters of criminal and/or tort law, two areas that historically belong to the states. Federal courts hear some of these, but when they do they tend to find and apply the state law to apply. Only if there is some "federal question" (e.g. antitrust, treason, whatever), is the decision going to be made using federal statutes.

Assault is a funny thing. It can be a tort (a wrong against an individual), or it can be a wrong against the state (small-s, not large-S State of Minnesota). Federal question subject-matter jurisdiction in tort comes only if there is a individual right under federal law (e.g., a law requiring compensation for a "civil rights" violation). Federal criminal law jurisdiction lies similarly, e.g. for treason, sedition, assaulting the President of the United States, etc.

But there is no general federal law either imposing liability for the tort of assault or providing punishment for the crime of assault. There are some specific assaults that have been made federal crimes (e.g., assaulting certain fed official). (The Uniform Code of Military Justice, part of federal law, also has provisions for assault.) But most have not. Most assault remains a matter of state law. And should.

I'm not even sure such a law would pass constitutional muster. It certainly wouldn't if the Ninth and Tenth Amendments had any respect remaining at all. But even recognizing that the courts will likely continue to ignore those two amendments' plain meaning, I think bringing garden-variety assault under Article I is going to bring major objection.

Could the Saints' activities be considered criminal? Yes. But that's for states (or federal courts applying state law) to decide. It's simply not a federal matter.

Or shouldn't be.

If the Moronable Senator Durbin thinks he needs to get involved, he needs to do it by constitutional amendment. Hah!

Provisional rule #64: If it's said by a politico in a committee room, it's ignorant, moronic, wrong, or some combination of the three.




And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

If it's obviously wrong, then why does it need to be made into a crime? And why does the government need to punish it?

Committing adultery is wrong. That doesn't mean the government needs to get involved.

Nonstopdrivel wrote:



Because people continue to forget (or never learned) that there's a difference between a tort and a crime, of course.

Torts are wrongs done to individuals. Remedy: lawsuit by the individual wronged.
Crimes are wrongs done to the state or, if you prefer wishy-washy Rousseauian babble, to "society." Remedy for crime: prosecution by representative of the state (e.g., the county, the State or federal Attorney-General).

Tort - lawsuit - individual. Crime - prosecution - state.

This doesn't need law school to understand.

Rourke's analogy to adultery is nearly spot on here. By my theology, adultery is a third category (a wrong done to God). But most people, even most Christians, don't seem to get that notion. But insofar as adultery is a wrong against "humans", it is a wrong done to individuals -- the spouse of the adulterer, or even one of the adulterers. It is not a wrong against society. It may be a sin when someone lusts after a person known to be married (I have to admit I wish it wasn't, since this is a sin I continue to commit far too often), but sinfulness does not equate to criminal liability.

Or at least it shouldn't.

At most it should bring civil liability. Which, what do you know, it sometimes does. Depending on the state involved: a finding of adultery can lead to a different outcome in a divorce action. (another province of state law.)


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

That logic in and of itself can be used to argue that nothing should be a crime.

Originally Posted by: Porforis 



No.

Rourke is simply saying that making something a crime is more than saying something is a "wrong".

In particular (see last rambling posts), it must be shown that it is a wrong against the state.

And if it is to be called a federal crime, it must be shown to be a wrong against the United States.




And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

Yes, except that if a sport has been legally ruled a full-contact sport, there is no liability or injuries sustained in the course of a game, at least not in Wisconsin. That is why cheerleading injury claims are dismissed in Wisconsin courts -- the sport was ruled a full-contact sport.

Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 



Hey, I remember spending most of my high school years dreaming that cheerleading would be a full-contact sport.

[grin1]


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
nerdmann
13 years ago
If I take money to break someone's legs, I'm going to jail. Especially if I do so in furtherance of a conspiracy to promote illegal gambling.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Fan Shout
dfosterf (14-Jul) : *analysis* gettin' old
dfosterf (14-Jul) : One of the best analyisis I"ve ever watched at this time of an offseason
dfosterf (14-Jul) : Andy Herman interviewed Warren Sharp on his Pack a day podcast
packerfanoutwest (10-Jul) : Us Padres fans love it....But it'll be a Dodgers/Yankees World Series
Zero2Cool (9-Jul) : Brewers sweep Dodgers. Awesome
Mucky Tundra (6-Jul) : And James Flanigan is the grandson of Packers Super Bowl winner Jim Flanigan Sr.
Mucky Tundra (6-Jul) : Jerome Bettis and Jim Flanigans sons as well!
Zero2Cool (6-Jul) : Thomas Davis Jr is OLB, not WR. Oops.
Zero2Cool (6-Jul) : Larry Fitzgeral and Thomas Davis sons too. WR's as well.
Mucky Tundra (5-Jul) : Kaydon Finley, son of Jermichael Finley, commits to Notre Dame
dfosterf (3-Jul) : Make sure to send my props to him! A plus move!
Zero2Cool (3-Jul) : My cousin, yes.
dfosterf (3-Jul) : That was your brother the GB press gazette referenced with the red cross draft props thing, yes?
Zero2Cool (2-Jul) : Packers gonna unveil new throwback helmet in few weeks.
Mucky Tundra (2-Jul) : I know it's Kleiman but this stuff writes itself
Mucky Tundra (2-Jul) : "Make sure she signs the NDA before asking for a Happy Ending!"
Mucky Tundra (2-Jul) : @NFL_DovKleiman Powerful: Deshaun Watson is taking Shedeur Sanders 'under his wing' as a mentor to the Browns QBs
Zero2Cool (30-Jun) : Dolphins get (back) Minkah Fitzpatrick in trade
Zero2Cool (30-Jun) : Steelers land Jalen Ramsey via Trade
dfosterf (26-Jun) : I think it would be great to have someone like Tom Grossi or Andy Herman on the Board of Directors so he/they could inform us
dfosterf (26-Jun) : Fair enough, WPR. Thing is, I have been a long time advocate to at least have some inkling of the dynamics within the board.
wpr (26-Jun) : 1st world owners/stockholders problems dfosterf.
Martha Careful (25-Jun) : I would have otherwise admirably served
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Also, no more provision for a write-in candidate, so Martha is off the table at least for this year
dfosterf (25-Jun) : You do have to interpret the boring fine print, but all stockholders all see he is on the ballot
dfosterf (25-Jun) : It also says he is subject to another ballot in 2028. I recall nothing of this nature with Murphy
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Ed Policy is on my ballot subject to me penciling him in as a no.
dfosterf (25-Jun) : I thought it used to be we voted for the whatever they called the 45, and then they voted for the seven, and then they voted for Mark Murphy
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Because I was too lazy to change my address, I haven't voted fot years until this year
dfosterf (25-Jun) : of the folks that run this team. I do not recall Mark Murphy being subject to our vote.
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Ed Policy yay or nay is on the pre-approved ballot that we always approve because we are uninformed and lazy, along with all the rest
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Weird question. Very esoteric. For stockholders. Also lengthy. Sorry. Offseason.
Zero2Cool (25-Jun) : Maybe wicked wind chill made it worse?
Mucky Tundra (25-Jun) : And then he signs with Cleveland in the offseason
Mucky Tundra (25-Jun) : @SharpFootball WR Diontae Johnson just admitted he refused to enter a game in 41° weather last year in Baltimore because he felt “ice cold”
Zero2Cool (24-Jun) : Yawn. Rodgers says he is "pretty sure" this be final season.
Zero2Cool (23-Jun) : PFT claims Packers are having extension talks with Zach Tom, Quay Walker.
Mucky Tundra (20-Jun) : GB-Minnesota 2004 Wild Card game popped up on my YouTube page....UGH
beast (20-Jun) : Hmm 🤔 re-signing Walker before Tom? Sounds highly questionable to me.
Mucky Tundra (19-Jun) : One person on Twitter=cannon law
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : Well, to ONE person on Tweeter
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : According to Tweeter
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : Packers are working on extension for LT Walker they hope to have done before camp
dfosterf (18-Jun) : E4B landed at Andrews last night
dfosterf (18-Jun) : 101 in a 60
dfosterf (18-Jun) : FAFO
Zero2Cool (18-Jun) : one year $4m with incentives to make it up to $6m
dfosterf (18-Jun) : Or Lions
dfosterf (18-Jun) : Beats the hell out of a Vikings signing
Zero2Cool (18-Jun) : Baltimore Ravens now have signed former Packers CB Jaire Alexander.
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2025 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 7 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Thursday, Sep 11 @ 7:15 PM
COMMANDERS
Sunday, Sep 21 @ 12:00 PM
Browns
Sunday, Sep 28 @ 7:20 PM
Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 12 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Sunday, Oct 19 @ 3:25 PM
Cardinals
Sunday, Oct 26 @ 7:20 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 2 @ 12:00 PM
PANTHERS
Monday, Nov 10 @ 7:15 PM
EAGLES
Sunday, Nov 16 @ 12:00 PM
Giants
Sunday, Nov 23 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Thursday, Nov 27 @ 12:00 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 7 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Dec 14 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Friday, Dec 19 @ 11:00 PM
Bears
Friday, Dec 26 @ 11:00 PM
RAVENS
Saturday, Jan 3 @ 11:00 PM
Vikings
Recent Topics
15-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

15-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

14-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

10-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

10-Jul / Around The NFL / Zero2Cool

6-Jul / Random Babble / Martha Careful

4-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

2-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

2-Jul / Fantasy Sports Talk / dfosterf

1-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

29-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

25-Jun / Around The NFL / Martha Careful

23-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

20-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

20-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.