mi_keys
13 years ago

That isn't my issue. The ball survived impact, Calvin rolled over and got his butt off the ground before he swung the ball around and hit the ground causing him to lose control of it. He was on his way back up.

That is the issue to me.

The initial impact didn't do anything.

How long after making a catch does the WR have to control the ball in the endzone before the play is over. 3 steps, 4 or mabye 5. What is the cut off. If a WR gets both feet down, gets knocked down by contact, does 3 somersaults, goes out of bounds, hits the goal post, lands on his left side and then drops the ball, is that still the process of the catch? If so, I disagree and it is a stupid interpretation of a good rule. That is a little extreme but if they don't say when the process ends, it never ends.

If the WR established possession by normal criteria before going to the ground, the ground shouldn't cause an incompletion. If he gets both feet in, then steps out of bounds and goes down, it should be a completion. The process should end when possession is established.

Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister 



The issue you raise is also my biggest problem with how the rule has developed/been interpreted over the past several years. If I recall correctly the ruling on the Jennings drop was that he was going to the ground because the defender had jumped on him as he was catching the ball. Then again, in week 1 I saw Brandon Marshall make a catch going up with a defender, stumble taking two steps and lose the ball when he hit the ground trying to stretch out for more yardage as he was going down; and no one questioned it. I have yet to see one good, consistently applied definition of what going to ground in the process of making the catch means.

I'm speculating here, but I think this rule gets its roots in a controversial call in the '99 NFC Championship game between the Bucs and Rams: the Bert Emmanuel catch. I'm sure a number of you remember the play, but what looked like and felt like a catch was reviewed and ruled incomplete. It may well have cost Tampa Bay the game; and the rule was changed that offseason. For reference, here is the play:



And what they changed the rule to in 2000:

A receiver has to have possession of the ball and control of the ball. If when making a catch and falling to the ground, the ball is allowed to touch the ground and still be considered a catch if the player maintains clear control of the ball.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_NFL_season 

I think that's where the "must maintain control through the process of the catch when going to the ground" has come from. If that was the original intent, then I think the rule should be stripped back down to how that original play and interpretation would have played out. They should limit it to plays where the receiver has dove to make a catch or something similar, where the catch and collision . They should also clearly define when the process of making a catch while going to the ground has been completed, to eliminate terrible rulings like what they got with Calvin Johnson last year.
Born and bred a cheesehead
beast
13 years ago
Calvin catch was a catch (he just put it down too early)... it's just the NFL wanted to crack down on letting the ball go too soon and he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and the Refs called it and made him the poster boy for the rule.

But it's simple... catch the ball in bounds and hold onto it...

For a TD... catch the ball in bounds, have it in the TD area and hold onto it...

You have to prove possession ether way... if you don't prove possession it's then a drop... it's the same all over the field.

The different is simply where you prove possession... if you prove it before the end zone all you have to do it get the ball into the end zone... if you don't prove possession before the end zone you have to prove possession in the end zone.
UserPostedImage
Dexter_Sinister
13 years ago

Calvin catch was a catch (he just put it down too early)... it's just the NFL wanted to crack down on letting the ball go too soon and he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and the Refs called it and made him the poster boy for the rule.

But it's simple... catch the ball in bounds and hold onto it...

For a TD... catch the ball in bounds, have it in the TD area and hold onto it...

You have to prove possession ether way... if you don't prove possession it's then a drop... it's the same all over the field.

The different is simply where you prove possession... if you prove it before the end zone all you have to do it get the ball into the end zone... if you don't prove possession before the end zone you have to prove possession in the end zone.

Originally Posted by: beast 



How long do they have to hold on to it? What is the magic point in time when the process of making a catch ends you can hit the ground and not cause an incompletion? When does going to the ground end? How long after hitting the ground does that process go?

That is the problem your simple answer doesn't address. In a perfect world, the WR holds on to the ball until after he gets up and hands it to the official. The real world isn't perfect. The rules should explain when those processes start and end. But they are so open ended, that a guy can get both feet down in bounds with control, step on the boundry, take another step, and then land on the ground losing the ball and it is incomplete. Or a guy can make a catch in the end zone, get both feet down, get his butt down, roll over onto his knees and start getting up and lose the completion because the ball squirted out of his grip after he was up on one knee.

Real examples of how poorly this rule is interpreted.

My opinion is that when the receiver controls the ball, gets 2 feet down and makes any move, the process of making a catch is over. What happens after that follows according to a ball carrier with possession. If he falls and hits the ground untouched and loses the ball, it is live. If he is knocked down, the ground can't cause a fumble and he is down by contact.

If a player touches the boundary and is touching the Football, the play is instantly dead. What happens after that is not relevant. If he had control and 2 feet or a knee in bounds the play is dead as soon as he touches the boundary. If he doesn't have control, the play is dead without that player being in possession of the ball.

If a player goes to the ground without establishing possession by the normal rules of 2 feet down and a move, then he has to control the ball and not touch the boundry or let the ball touch the ground out of his control while going to the ground.

As far as the definition of when going to the ground ends, it should be when his downward momentum stops. Even if he bounces and hits the ground a second time causing him to lose the ball. If control survived initial contact with the ground, as long as the player is in the endzone, out of bounds or downed by contact, the catch is completed and play is over. If he is not downed by contact, out ov bounds or in the end zone it is a live ball.

They need clear delineation of when those two processes start and end.


I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
beast
13 years ago

How long do they have to hold on to it? What is the magic point in time when the process of making a catch ends you can hit the ground and not cause an incompletion? When does going to the ground end? How long after hitting the ground does that process go?

That is the problem your simple answer doesn't address.

Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister 



Because that answer is football 101... you play till the whistle blows... until the Refs rule the play dead...


UserPostedImage
Dexter_Sinister
13 years ago

Because that answer is football 101... you play till the whistle blows... until the Refs rule the play dead...

Originally Posted by: beast 



Arbitrary then.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
beast
13 years ago

Arbitrary then.

Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister 



No and you know that (or should if you know football 101). The Ref is suppose to blow the whistle when the play is over.
UserPostedImage
Dexter_Sinister
13 years ago

No and you know that (or should if you know football 101). The Ref is suppose to blow the whistle when the play is over.

Originally Posted by: beast 


When is the play over? That is the arbitrary part.

The definitions don't state when going to the ground stops. Don't use circular logic and say at the whistle. When is the official supposed to blow the whistle according to the rules? I have seen them do it after the WR takes 2 steps out of bound and then hits the ground.

When does the process of catching a ball end? We need a concrete delineation of when the process of making a catch ends and possession is established. What happens after that should be according to the rules of a ball carrier with possession. Which is not the end of the play.

We also need to have a concrete delineation of when going to the ground ends. Not the arbitrary decision of the official. I think it should be initial impact with the ground. When all downward momentum has stopped. If they roll, bounce or get hit after that, that should be after the play is dead by the rules. Not by the official deciding arbitrarily.

You can't replay an arbitrary decision. You can't even get more than one person to concur on when exactly that point is. But downward momentum stopping is a much more finite point than the process of going to the ground.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
PackerTraxx
13 years ago
As ususal the NFL can't keep anything plain and simple. The interpretation should be the sam in the end zone as the rest of the field. They complicate instant replay even worse.
Why is Jerry Kramer not in the Hall of Fame?
longtimefan
13 years ago
Again, if the ground cant cause a fumble in the 100 yards of the field, why is it different in the endzones?
beast
13 years ago
blah blah blah... I'm tired of the whining, complaining and excuses...

hold onto the ball in the end zone and it's a TD... it's simple as that...

UserPostedImage
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (36m) : Woodson of Charles fame was reluctant and then loved it. that didn't really come out until post career
Mucky Tundra (47m) : IE "We bought into the Bears and they let us down, we have no choice to seek alternatives"
Mucky Tundra (49m) : Or that Williams and his family are preparing an exit ramp if they don't like how things are going in a few years
Mucky Tundra (50m) : Either Williams thought it would make him look good (reluctant but then embraces the city and franchise)
Mucky Tundra (51m) : I can only assume that the Williams camp agreed to cooperate with that article tells me 2 things
dfosterf (1h) : Ya. They are in a great mood
Zero2Cool (1h) : I should visit again
dfosterf (3h) : ChiCity Sports entering freakout mode due to Caleb and his dad not wanting him to go there
Zero2Cool (4h) : "He's looking really good out there," Derrick Ansley said of Kalen King. Adds that he's been playing inside and out.
Zero2Cool (8h) : Him saying he doesn't have one to give haha
Zero2Cool (8h) : True, that was awesome. The whole F thing was great actually.
dfosterf (8h) : I did like the Mark Murphy part, sorta
Zero2Cool (8h) : Some comments on it saying it was great, amazing... I came away thinking... awkward.
dfosterf (9h) : Packers schedule release video is "interesting" I guess.
Zero2Cool (10h) : SOOO glad that tool still works. Saves from manually entering each game
Zero2Cool (10h) : NFL Pick'em import was done last night.
Mucky Tundra (14h) : Atlanta with 5 primetime games lol
Zero2Cool (21h) : Week Five BYE?? NFL is hell.
wpr (14-May) : Vikings schedule leaked. Week 12 in GB. Week 18 in MN.
wpr (14-May) : CBS has GB @ NYG Week 11 Nov 16 and they will face MN in week 18 but don't say where. I think away
Zero2Cool (14-May) : W15: Packers at Broncos
Zero2Cool (14-May) : Ben Sirmans on MarShawn Lloyd: “Everything’s full go for him.”
Zero2Cool (14-May) : Luke Butkus says training camp will allow plenty of time to implement new center Elgton Jenkins
Zero2Cool (14-May) : wk 2 commanders at packers
Zero2Cool (14-May) : Ugh. Packers thanksgiving detroit ...boring
Zero2Cool (14-May) : Panthers at Green Bay in week 9, Nov 2nd
buckeyepackfan (14-May) : Week 1
buckeyepackfan (14-May) : Packers Host Detroit Week 1! ML finally gets a week home opener.
beast (13-May) : I was kind of hoping Douglas might come back to the Pack
beast (13-May) : My question is how much do we trust Jenkins? In bad weather, he seemed to struggle a bit with ball control snapping, though he started at OG
beast (13-May) : Well Jenkins probably knows he's not getting that 2026 salary number without a new contact... so just trying to get the new contact early
Zero2Cool (13-May) : CB Rasul Douglas is visiting the #Seahawks today, per source.
dfosterf (13-May) : He's a switch and baiter. Its the same as a bait and switcher except he agreed to the switch first lol
dfosterf (13-May) : 6.8 mil raise next year. Those are existing contract numbers
dfosterf (13-May) : 12.8 plus 4.8 pro rata signing bonus is 17.6 mil. Top center in the league at 18
Zero2Cool (13-May) : Elgton Jenkins wants to rework contract ahead of position change to center
Zero2Cool (13-May) : 🏈Monday, Nov. 10: Eagles at Packers
buckeyepackfan (12-May) : Packers @ Bears week 16(Saturday Game)
Zero2Cool (12-May) : Clifford hasn't been the same since losing 8
dfosterf (12-May) : Sean Clifford would probably disagree
dfosterf (12-May) : Canuck Cannon. Got a very good feeling about this
Zero2Cool (12-May) : Tom Pelissero also reports what bboy stated
bboystyle (12-May) : The Green Bay Packers on Monday signed Taylor Elgersma, the Canadian-born quarterback who tried out at the team’s rookie camp last weekend
beast (12-May) : There were reports four days ago that the Packers were signing QB Taylor Elgersma, but no official action since
Zero2Cool (12-May) : And for Ian Rapoport to announce Saints send 1st and 2nd rounder to Packers for Malik Willis.
dfosterf (12-May) : *Elgersma*
dfosterf (12-May) : Today would be a good day to discover the Pack signed Taylor Engersma, the Canadian QB
Zero2Cool (11-May) : It wasn't. He simply wanted his money back. They refused. Cops came. They gave him his money in end.
dfosterf (11-May) : Fortunately it doesn't sound like a big deal
Zero2Cool (10-May) : Elgton Jenkins Involved In Strip Club Dispute ... Cops Called To Mitigate
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2025 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 7 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Thursday, Sep 11 @ 7:15 PM
COMMANDERS
Sunday, Sep 21 @ 12:00 PM
Browns
Sunday, Sep 28 @ 7:20 PM
Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 12 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Sunday, Oct 19 @ 3:25 PM
Cardinals
Sunday, Oct 26 @ 7:20 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 2 @ 12:00 PM
PANTHERS
Monday, Nov 10 @ 7:15 PM
EAGLES
Sunday, Nov 16 @ 12:00 PM
Giants
Sunday, Nov 23 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Thursday, Nov 27 @ 12:00 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 7 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Dec 14 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Friday, Dec 19 @ 11:00 PM
Bears
Friday, Dec 26 @ 11:00 PM
RAVENS
Saturday, Jan 3 @ 11:00 PM
Vikings
Recent Topics
1h / Random Babble / Martha Careful

3h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

3h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

6h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

14-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

13-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / nyrpack

13-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

13-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

13-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

13-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

13-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

12-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

12-May / Around The NFL / beast

12-May / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

9-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.