musccy
13 years ago
Good points by Pzck93z, zero, and WPR.

Right or wrong, keep in mind that Pakistan already isn't happy that we did this on their land w/o their knowledge. Furthermore, imagine if Pakistan or Al Qaeda pulled out a similar operation on Bush/Obama at the White House. We'd be livid that he was captured and killed as was, but then imagine the outrage if pictures of his death were shown publicly, his body was 'defiled,' if it wasn't disposed of in a timely/appropriate manner, etc.

There is a reason the threat level has been heightened since Sunday night, and our actions need to be made with respect to those concerns rather than seeking revenge against someone who is already dead.
Since69
13 years ago
The achievement of power is a deal with the devil. Even those who want power for good reasons can use evil methods to attain it. If a president (any president) needs four more years to realize his (admittedly altruistic) goals, that president will do almost anything to be re-elected, because, in their minds, the end justifies the means.

If the general public is mistrusting and cynical, it's because we've been taught to be mistrusting and cynical. We have all - every one of us - been lied to at one time or another by our government and various authority figures. And in this age of information, the lies are easier to sniff out. It's no wonder that we take everything with a grain of salt.

And we should. We'd all be living on a flat world at the center of the universe if we didn't.

I don't know if Osama is still alive. Actually I'd be surprised if he was. But I'd be even more surprised if the events surrounding his death unfolded the way we're being told.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

The achievement of power is a deal with the devil. Even those who want power for good reasons can use evil methods to attain it. If a president (any president) needs four more years to realize his (admittedly altruistic) goals, that president will do almost anything to be re-elected, because, in their minds, the end justifies the means.

If the general public is mistrusting and cynical, it's because we've been taught to be mistrusting and cynical. We have all - every one of us - been lied to at one time or another by our government and various authority figures. And in this age of information, the lies are easier to sniff out. It's no wonder that we take everything with a grain of salt.

And we should. We'd all be living on a flat world at the center of the universe if we didn't.

I don't know if Osama is still alive. Actually I'd be surprised if he was. But I'd be even more surprised if the events surrounding his death unfolded the way we're being told.

"Since69" wrote:



Well said.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
dhpackr
13 years ago

Another senior US official said that no intelligence had been shared with any country, including Pakistan, ahead of the raid.

"Only a very small group of people inside our own government knew of this operation in advance," the official said.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



So in other words, this hasn't been vetted by any outside source and we have only the word of our government to go on.

Reassuring.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:

I'm not clear where you're going with this ...



is he saying there is a conspiracy?
did the usa attack its own ppl just so they had a reason to send armed forces into the middle east? aka 911 was planned by the us government?

has osama bin laden been dead for over 7 years, and this is a hoAX FOR OBAMA to regain his presidency for another 4 years?

in a time where several politicians are demanding a balanced budget, why are we sending billions of dollars in aid to a country that supports terrorism (sending usa $$ to pakistan where bin laden was living right in the middle of a large city)?
So if you meet me Have some courtesy, Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse, Or I'll lay your soul to waste
Zero2Cool
13 years ago
I don't think politician's have changed much in the last 200 years, I think we just know more details now. I kind of wish we didn't know and COULD simply let them do their job's. Unfortunately, I'd say a good percentage of them couldn't be trusted to do just that and that also ruins our perception of those who are truly dedicated to our country.
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Pack93z
13 years ago
Personally I see no benefit in publicly releasing any photos as such... the skeptics will just ponder the validity of the photos all the while stirring the emotions further those that backed his cause.


The White House is knocking down reports that President Obama has decided to release gruesome photos  of Osama bin Laden after his death.

The Drudge Report, a conservative-leaning news site and aggregator, is trumpeting word that Mr. Obama will release at least one "graphic" photo, adding that "one image shows a bullet wound to his head above his left eye."

National Security Council spokesman Tommy Vietor said in an email to reporters that "there is no update on the decision to release the photos. I have no idea what the Drudge thing is based on."

"I understand there is a lot of interest in this decision, but it's very difficult to provide constant guidance or updates," he added. "I promise that if or when there's more to say, we'll let you know."

The White House is facing pressure to release visual evidence that bin Laden is dead amid skepticism at home and abroad over whether the al Qaeda leader has in fact been killed.

White House counter-terrorism adviser John Brennan said Monday there are "upsides and downsides" to releasing visual evidence. While such evidence could quiet the skeptics, Brennan cautioned that "you want to make sure that you're not doing anything to expose something that will limit your ability to use [certain] intelligence sources and capabilities in the future."

The potentially-gruesome nature of any photographs -- and the fact that bin Laden could be hard to identify after being shot in the face -- also complicates the calculus.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
dhpackr
13 years ago

Personally I see no benefit in publicly releasing any photos as such... the skeptics will just ponder the validity of the photos all the while stirring the emotions further those that backed his cause.


The White House is knocking down reports that President Obama has decided to release gruesome photos  of Osama bin Laden after his death.

The Drudge Report, a conservative-leaning news site and aggregator, is trumpeting word that Mr. Obama will release at least one "graphic" photo, adding that "one image shows a bullet wound to his head above his left eye."

National Security Council spokesman Tommy Vietor said in an email to reporters that "there is no update on the decision to release the photos. I have no idea what the Drudge thing is based on."

"I understand there is a lot of interest in this decision, but it's very difficult to provide constant guidance or updates," he added. "I promise that if or when there's more to say, we'll let you know."

The White House is facing pressure to release visual evidence that bin Laden is dead amid skepticism at home and abroad over whether the al Qaeda leader has in fact been killed.

White House counter-terrorism adviser John Brennan said Monday there are "upsides and downsides" to releasing visual evidence. While such evidence could quiet the skeptics, Brennan cautioned that "you want to make sure that you're not doing anything to expose something that will limit your ability to use [certain] intelligence sources and capabilities in the future."

The potentially-gruesome nature of any photographs -- and the fact that bin Laden could be hard to identify after being shot in the face -- also complicates the calculus.

"Pack93z" wrote:



or has bin laden been dead for several years?
So if you meet me Have some courtesy, Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse, Or I'll lay your soul to waste
Pack93z
13 years ago


Bin Laden brings out the best in conspiracy theorists  

By Wynne Parry
LiveScience
updated 5/2/2011 4:39:45 PM ET 2011-05-02T20:39:45

Its not hard to imagine why the announcement sounds suspicious: A decade-long search for an international terrorist ends with his body dumped at sea, with no photos, film or other documentation provided.

President Barack Obama's announcement on Sunday night that United States forces had killed Sept. 11 mastermind Osama bin Laden leaves a lot for conspiracy theorists to chew on.

"The potential is tremendous," said Barna Donovan, a professor of communications at St. Peter's College in New Jersey and author of the forthcoming book "Conspiracy Films: A Tour of Dark Places in the American Conscious" (McFarland & Company, 2011).

In fact, the conspiracy theorists are already out. Politico reporting that radio host Alex Jones, who thinks the U.S. government was behind the Sept. 11 attacks, said that he believes that the government had bin Laden frozen for years. Anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan has also called the announcement a fake as did an arm of a Pakistani Taliban group, according to the website. A Facebook group Osama bin Laden NOT DEAD has begun collecting attracting like minded people, and apparently fake photos of bin Laden's battered face have added fuel to the fire.

Ingredients for a conspiracy
"We have a couple of factors already that are coming out that naturally fuel the conspiratorial impulse," Donovan said. Apparently there is no body, he was buried at sea. The conspiratorial mindset will glom onto that."

American officials have said they identified bin Laden's body with 99.9 percent confidence using DNA evidence, and that his body was photographed before being buried at sea, according to The Associated Press. (Officials said bin Laden was buried at sea because it would have been difficult to find a country willing to accept his remains and because Islamic custom requires a swift burial, the AP reported.)

The lack of documentation leaves room for conspiracy theorists to question whether or not bin Laden is actually dead, or whether he died long ago as some, including the author David Ray Griffin, have suggested.

Another potential angle for conspiracy theorists is the timing of the announcement, according to Patricia Turner, a professor of folklore at the University of California, Davis. The most amusing theory she has seen so far speculates that Obama timed the announcement to knock Trumps show reality TV show "Celebrity Apprentice", which runs Sunday nights, off the air to punish Trump.

Trump, who is considering running as a Republican candidate for president in 2012, has been questioning Obama's citizenship and, hence, his eligibility for office, echoing demands long made by conspiracy theorists dubbed "birthers."

"That is a reminder as well that some of these things are amusing," Turner said.

Timing will likely feed many other theories, according to Turner.

"There are going to be people who say, 'Why couldn't we have done this earlier? Why did this take so long?'" she said.

With the approach of the next presidential campaign, for example, some could speculate that Obama timed the action to boost his popularity. Others could speculate that bin Laden's death was staged or timed to get Americans energized about committing more resources to the war on terror, said Donovan.

"Usually conspiracy theories have political angle," he said.

Who are conspiracy theorists?
Conspiracy theories have flourished since the Sept. 11 terrorist attack and in its aftermath, including the idea that the attack was an "inside job" perpetrated by the U.S. government, that bin Laden died long ago but the U.S. government never acknowledged his death as a way to keep support for the war on terror strong, and that Obama is a Muslim and in cahoots with terrorists. ( Obama is a Christian.)

Conspiracy theorists tend to be "people who feel like they don't have power in the world, they feel like they have been victimized, they often come up with these explanations how somebody must be behind it," Donovan said.

Mindset is important, according to Turner, who has followed the birther trend. Conspiracy theories regarding an event often arise when "an official explanation of it seems incongruous to some people who have a worldview that doesn't accommodate that legitimate explanation," she said. "Or that the information that one is getting is confused, chaotic and contradictory."

Dispelling myths
To keep theories from running wild, the Obama administration should release as much information as possible, and speak directly, without any euphemisms or language that seems to be hedging a bet, Turner recommended. However, full disclosure and the clearest of talk won't convince everyone, as evidenced by the hoopla surrounding Obama's birth certificate.

"There is going to be another element of the population that is so inclined to distrust his citizenship that they are going to find flaws with his birth certificate or alternative ways of believing he is not a citizen because they have a fundamental, abiding belief that he should not be president," Turner said.

If the administration were to release documentation say, film showing bin Laden's burial, people with this sort of mindset would find flaws, she said. And by denying the theories, there is the risk that the administration could plant the theories in the minds of those who have yet to hear them, she said.

Dispelling conspiracy theories could be an uphill battle for the administration.

"We love conspiracies," said Guido Stempel, who conducted national surveys on them as director of the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio University. These routinely found that a large portion of the population gave at least some credibility to theories, such as the U.S. government withholding information about the existence of extraterrestrial life.

In a survey in 2006, one of two that asked about the Sept. 11 attacks, Stempel and colleagues asked Americans if they believed federal officials either participated in the attacks or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East."

Twenty percent said this scenario was very likely, while 16 percent said it was somewhat likely.

"That is 60 million people who think it's very likely the government got involved on 9/11. That's an awful thing for people to believe," Stempel said.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
dhpackr
13 years ago
good read! I do not want to believe the United States Government was behind 9/11.

I do find it amusing Bin Laden suddenly came up dead and both Democrats and Republicans are arguing over who is responsible for his death.

Nobody ever talks about the missile that hit the pentagon on 9/11.
So if you meet me Have some courtesy, Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse, Or I'll lay your soul to waste
Zero2Cool
13 years ago

Nobody ever talks about the missile that hit the pentagon on 9/11.

"dhpackr" wrote:



Nobody ever talks about the million dollars I won on 9/11 either.
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