Rockmolder
15 years ago
I was forced to take German, French and English at the level of high school I did.

French and German eventually killed me. Both languages that I haven't used since.

Anyway, I can read German, but barely speak it. I don't speak or read a word of French. My English is ok and I obviously speak Dutch.

Thing is, you only need English. What ZS said is true. Every educational system in the western world gives you English lessons for a reason.

Now if you really want to speak a language you might be able to use one day you should try Chinese.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
15 years ago
So I take it no one buys the "you can't really understand the details of other cultures without the language of the culture" argument? That you can talk to others in English, but not fully with them?

Guess I'm in the minority. If I were a parent (rofl at that concept!), my kids would have two extra languages by the end of high school (ideally Chinese and Spanish), then start on another two (one Euro, perhaps Vietamese or Arabic) in college. In fact I wouldn't send them to a university unless it offered major language opportunities.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
zombieslayer
15 years ago
Wade - In an ideal world, yes.

But I'm lazy and when it's all easy for you, why work hard at something you really don't need to do?

(See Zero, I admitted one of my many, many faults).

Rock - It's not just the Western world. It's pretty much everywhere now. English is the international language of commerce.
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Zero2Cool
15 years ago

i have a 7th grade level knowledge of spanish, then i failed it

"alharrisdude31" wrote:

That's two grades higher than my English level.
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Wade
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15 years ago

Wade - In an ideal world, yes.

But I'm lazy and when it's all easy for you, why work hard at something you really don't need to do?

(See Zero, I admitted one of my many, many faults).

Rock - It's not just the Western world. It's pretty much everywhere now. English is the international language of commerce.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



I expect i'm even lazier than you are. 🙂

And I agree that English is the language of commerce.

But I wonder if part of the reason Americans have so many image problems, and American business in particular, has to do with the fact that too much of what we do is limited by our inability to participate in conversations.

Put it this way. I can walk into a bank anywhere in the world and deposit money or withdraw it never speaking anything but English. Same with buying something in a store. Same with a conference room meeting. Same, of course, with a hotel or an airport.

But what if I want to understand the "supply and demand" of my market more deeply? What if I want to observe people's values, what they reveal when they talk among themselves, what they're doing when they aren't speaking English? My lack of their language leaves me out of touch.

My English allows me to transact with them. But does it allow me to get the best terms of trade? Does it allow me to understand their wants/needs deep enough so that I provide the right products and services to them.
English allows me to trade, but does it do enough language-wise to help me to have something to trade? To keep me from running afoul of cultural or personal barriers to trading certain goods/services?

Here's a trivial example, but I think it might touch on the problem. I just got back from a trip to Braga, Portugal. I'm a foodie, so when I travel I try to spend some time exploring local eating.

Now, if you ever go as a tourist to Portugal, you'll find out that the big dish is bacalhau, which means either "codfish" or "salted codfish", I'm not sure which. Actually, salted or not, bacalau is not one dish, but several -- one description is "one dish, prepared 175 different ways".)

But, after being there for almost two weeks, let's just say I was looking for something other than Bacalhau. Something spicier or "stronger". Something without cod in it.

So, my last night, a friend from Braga took me to a nearby town called Ponte de Lima for sarrabulho. Without a local friend, I would likely never have visited the town, much less found the restaurant which, ccording to my friend, is the best place in Portugal for the dish in question. (Though, to be truthful, I don't recommend this particular dish. It turns out to be a a variety of meats (including, I think, two different kinds of liver), cooked in pigs blood.)

I have no doubt that almost everyone I met that night spoke at least some English, but I shudder to think of what my experience would have been. For one, without the Portuguese guide, I would never have negotiated the "back way" from Braga to Ponte de Lima, but would have instead taken the motorway; and so I would have missed the glimpses into local culture and scenery that the drive offered.

Assuming I made it to Ponte de Lima, I would have discovered myself in the middle of a local festival (devoted to some ceremonial cow; I still haven't figured out what it was, save that the narrow and winding streets of the town, with virtually no signage in English, were crammed with drinking and partying people.

I doubt I would have found the restaurant in question, or any restaurant with a table with any ease.

And were it not for being with someone fluent in the language, I might not have got out of town before my plane left the next day. I expect my "tourist" driving would have got me stopped on the way out of town by the policia enforcing more stringent drinking-and-driving laws (my friend was worried about being stopped after having had maybe a glass and a half of wine).

And that's assuming I would have been able to negotiate the care away from the riverfront, through the streets to the motorway. My guide actually made two or three mistakes (one, the extrication from which, required us to back up a narrow cobblestone street almost two blocks against the flow of a few hundred wall-to-wall pedestrians, and at least three separate extended conversations/shouting matches in staccato, rapid-fire Portuguese.

It was a fantastic time. But it would have been even better had I known the language myself. I was at the mercy of my companion and her wisdom and limitations.

Commerce-wise, this is, as I said, a trivial example.

But as I was trying to wind down to sleep after getting back to my hotel, I found myself thinking: suppose I wanted to really get into the Ponte de Lima celebration? Suppose I was thinking about selling something "Iowan" to these people? Suppose I wanted to point out to the people of Ponte de Lima that there were better cuisines than ones using pig's blood. Suppose I was thinking about making Ponte de Lima not just a one-night visit but a annual three-week vacation? Suppose I was trying to decide whether my company should open an office/factory in northern Portugal?

And I found I couldn't really answe any of these questions, in part, because I knew I needed more Portuguese before I could get all the information I needed.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
zombieslayer
15 years ago


I expect i'm even lazier than you are. 🙂

And I agree that English is the language of commerce.

But I wonder if part of the reason Americans have so many image problems, and American business in particular, has to do with the fact that too much of what we do is limited by our inability to participate in conversations.

Put it this way. I can walk into a bank anywhere in the world and deposit money or withdraw it never speaking anything but English. Same with buying something in a store. Same with a conference room meeting. Same, of course, with a hotel or an airport.

But what if I want to understand the "supply and demand" of my market more deeply? What if I want to observe people's values, what they reveal when they talk among themselves, what they're doing when they aren't speaking English? My lack of their language leaves me out of touch.

My English allows me to transact with them. But does it allow me to get the best terms of trade? Does it allow me to understand their wants/needs deep enough so that I provide the right products and services to them.
English allows me to trade, but does it do enough language-wise to help me to have something to trade? To keep me from running afoul of cultural or personal barriers to trading certain goods/services?

Here's a trivial example, but I think it might touch on the problem. I just got back from a trip to Braga, Portugal. I'm a foodie, so when I travel I try to spend some time exploring local eating.

Now, if you ever go as a tourist to Portugal, you'll find out that the big dish is bacalhau, which means either "codfish" or "salted codfish", I'm not sure which. Actually, salted or not, bacalau is not one dish, but several -- one description is "one dish, prepared 175 different ways".)

But, after being there for almost two weeks, let's just say I was looking for something other than Bacalhau. Something spicier or "stronger". Something without cod in it.

So, my last night, a friend from Braga took me to a nearby town called Ponte de Lima for sarrabulho. Without a local friend, I would likely never have visited the town, much less found the restaurant which, ccording to my friend, is the best place in Portugal for the dish in question. (Though, to be truthful, I don't recommend this particular dish. It turns out to be a a variety of meats (including, I think, two different kinds of liver), cooked in pigs blood.)

I have no doubt that almost everyone I met that night spoke at least some English, but I shudder to think of what my experience would have been. For one, without the Portuguese guide, I would never have negotiated the "back way" from Braga to Ponte de Lima, but would have instead taken the motorway; and so I would have missed the glimpses into local culture and scenery that the drive offered.

Assuming I made it to Ponte de Lima, I would have discovered myself in the middle of a local festival (devoted to some ceremonial cow; I still haven't figured out what it was, save that the narrow and winding streets of the town, with virtually no signage in English, were crammed with drinking and partying people.

I doubt I would have found the restaurant in question, or any restaurant with a table with any ease.

And were it not for being with someone fluent in the language, I might not have got out of town before my plane left the next day. I expect my "tourist" driving would have got me stopped on the way out of town by the policia enforcing more stringent drinking-and-driving laws (my friend was worried about being stopped after having had maybe a glass and a half of wine).

And that's assuming I would have been able to negotiate the care away from the riverfront, through the streets to the motorway. My guide actually made two or three mistakes (one, the extrication from which, required us to back up a narrow cobblestone street almost two blocks against the flow of a few hundred wall-to-wall pedestrians, and at least three separate extended conversations/shouting matches in staccato, rapid-fire Portuguese.

It was a fantastic time. But it would have been even better had I known the language myself. I was at the mercy of my companion and her wisdom and limitations.

Commerce-wise, this is, as I said, a trivial example.

But as I was trying to wind down to sleep after getting back to my hotel, I found myself thinking: suppose I wanted to really get into the Ponte de Lima celebration? Suppose I was thinking about selling something "Iowan" to these people? Suppose I wanted to point out to the people of Ponte de Lima that there were better cuisines than ones using pig's blood. Suppose I was thinking about making Ponte de Lima not just a one-night visit but a annual three-week vacation? Suppose I was trying to decide whether my company should open an office/factory in northern Portugal?

And I found I couldn't really answe any of these questions, in part, because I knew I needed more Portuguese before I could get all the information I needed.

"Wade" wrote:



OK, good questions.

Yes, knowing English is not a guarantee of cultural understanding. For example, don't fold your arms when talking to a Japanese person. He'll take it as you think he's boring and it's an insult. Even worse, don't go touching a Thai person on the head. I guarantee more than one American tourist who's found dead in the street was because he did that.

Americans can also be quite obnoxious and LOUD. Not always a good thing. There's an old saying "when in Rome." I follow that to a tee.

The other thing about Americans is we have our heads up our asses in denial about just how mean the rest of the world is. Every other country on earth is racist as hell. It's not just us. Every country I've interacted with behind closed doors hates at least one group of people and you'll never know that unless you really got to know them. If you're sitting there speaking English and visiting only tourist spots, you most likely won't learn that.

Nice story about Portugal and of course it makes sense. I've heard there are real nice parts in France that only the French know about. Thais have two prices - one for you and me and one for fellow Thais. Brazil's got tons of secrets for locals only. The list is infinite.

Now, there are some countries where being American is actually an advantage. Filipinos (except for separatist Muslims in the south who actually want to cut your head off) love Americans and being an American is better than being, well, let's just say a French guy or an English guy. I know who they hate but I won't say it here. I'm sure there are other countries that love us but they're the ones who immediately come to mind.

By the way, do you really hate the Portuguese enough to sell them something Iowan? (just kidding).
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
15 years ago


By the way, do you really hate the Portuguese enough to sell them something Iowan? (just kidding).

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Hehe. Nah. I'm not sure there is a market for Iowa [strike]crap[/strike] stuff. Maybe Minnesota. Or maybe North Dakota :)

(Aside: I know Portugal is a basket case, but I came away from the visit thinking they have something untapped there if just the Eurocrats and Portupoliticos get out of the way. And tourist-wise, I can't speak of the entire country, but I'd recommend Northern Portugal for anyone seeking a different sort of "European" trip.)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
zombieslayer
15 years ago


Hehe. Nah. I'm not sure there is a market for Iowa [strike]crap[/strike] stuff. Maybe Minnesota. Or maybe North Dakota :)

(Aside: I know Portugal is a basket case, but I came away from the visit thinking they have something untapped there if just the Eurocrats and Portupoliticos get out of the way. And tourist-wise, I can't speak of the entire country, but I'd recommend Northern Portugal for anyone seeking a different sort of "European" trip.)

"Wade" wrote:



Well, first off, where are the babes? (priorities, man).

Yeah. I'd much rather live in Iowa than Minnesota, or even worse, North Dakota. I'm going to hit my 28th and 29th states this summer. Goal is to hit all 50 before dying. North Dakota will probably be #50. Or I might just decide to die at 49.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
15 years ago


Hehe. Nah. I'm not sure there is a market for Iowa [strike]crap[/strike] stuff. Maybe Minnesota. Or maybe North Dakota :)

(Aside: I know Portugal is a basket case, but I came away from the visit thinking they have something untapped there if just the Eurocrats and Portupoliticos get out of the way. And tourist-wise, I can't speak of the entire country, but I'd recommend Northern Portugal for anyone seeking a different sort of "European" trip.)

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Well, first off, where are the babes? (priorities, man).

Yeah. I'd much rather live in Iowa than Minnesota, or even worse, North Dakota. I'm going to hit my 28th and 29th states this summer. Goal is to hit all 50 before dying. North Dakota will probably be #50. Or I might just decide to die at 49.

"Wade" wrote:



I'm a bit behind you. I think the count for me is 25: Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Maryland, Rhode Island, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New York, Tennesee, Kentucky, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, North Carolina, Virginia, Texas, Missouri, Washington, California, Nevada.

I'm way behind on my list of "world places to see", though. And I'm guessing the bucket list of Tahiti, Greenland (in summer), the Great Wall, the Pyramids, Maccu Pichu, Angkor Wat, a round-the-world cruise, the Silk Road, and retracing Paul's missionary journeys is just wishful thinking at this point. Got as much chance at doing things on that list as I do of spending "quality time" with Jessica Biel. 😞
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
zombieslayer
15 years ago
You've been to a lot of states I haven't been to yet. Ohio, Maryland, RI, Delaware, Penn, Tenn, Kentucky, Miss, Alabama, NC, Virginia. Nice thing about those states is that they're so close together I can hit a lot of them all at once.

Tahiti I want to hit. Topless French women lying in the sun? I'm all over that. As much as I love history, I'll probably miss Maccu Piccu because of my lungs (or lack of them). That site is really high up.

As for Jessica Biel, yum! NSFW. I've always loved watching women looking in a mirror putting on their make-up, although they're usually in a chair.

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She totally does it for me as she's very "girl next door."
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