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Offline Zero2Cool  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, June 3, 2014 5:36:58 AM(UTC)
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CNN Money wrote:
Seattle's city council on Monday unanimously approved an increase in the city's minimum wage to $15 an hour, making it the nation's highest by far.


One of the motivating factors for me going to college was having my boss tell me that I peaked out at $11/hr and I was already making more than my supervisors and couldn't be bumped up even though I more than deserved it. I couldn't live how I wanted to on that salary and I refused to use any kind of assistance so I put myself through college.

And now there this is push to raise minimum wage to $15/hr. I do not understand how people can think this is a good thing. I want to know what I am missing because if employees flipping burgers are going to be paid TWICE as much, doesn't that mean their services and/or products will also increase? How does this help anyone? Is there a government mandate stating products/services cannot increase?

I've been to fast food places and there is absolutely no way they deserve $15/hr, none at all. And with making that much money, where's the incentive to go to college or even finish high school for that matter? I supported my family earning around $22k a year and with the new minimum wage proposal one could earn over $31k per year.


I just am not making the connection here. I mean, I thought places like Walmart, Copps, McDonalds, Taco Bell, etc ... I thought those were mainly for kids or people with advanced ages to earn an extra buck. I didn't think it was a means to support your entire family.

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Offline gbguy20  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, June 3, 2014 6:13:07 AM(UTC)
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Their minds are all bogged down from the rain. This is a horrible idea.
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Offline sschind  
#3 Posted : Monday, July 14, 2014 9:50:04 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
One of the motivating factors for me going to college was having my boss tell me that I peaked out at $11/hr and I was already making more than my supervisors and couldn't be bumped up even though I more than deserved it. I couldn't live how I wanted to on that salary and I refused to use any kind of assistance so I put myself through college.

And now there this is push to raise minimum wage to $15/hr. I do not understand how people can think this is a good thing. I want to know what I am missing because if employees flipping burgers are going to be paid TWICE as much, doesn't that mean their services and/or products will also increase? How does this help anyone? Is there a government mandate stating products/services cannot increase?

I've been to fast food places and there is absolutely no way they deserve $15/hr, none at all. And with making that much money, where's the incentive to go to college or even finish high school for that matter? I supported my family earning around $22k a year and with the new minimum wage proposal one could earn over $31k per year.


I just am not making the connection here. I mean, I thought places like Walmart, Copps, McDonalds, Taco Bell, etc ... I thought those were mainly for kids or people with advanced ages to earn an extra buck. I didn't think it was a means to support your entire family.


On the surface I agree with you, it would seem that prices of goods and services would have to go up and then yeah, who would benefit from that. I can see some potential benefits however and not just to the people now making twice as much.

What I think will happen in these places is that the kids or people with advanced ages will be looking for work while people trying to support families may finally be able to get jobs that will allow them to do just that. In the long run that may be what is needed, getting people in the jobs that need them the most.

If we assume for a minute the the number of jobs will not change (perhaps not an accurate assumption at all since places might be more inclined to go with 1 full time worker rather than two or three part timers) employers are theoretically going to have more laborers to choose from. People who would not consider flipping burgers for 8 or 9 bucks an hour will now for 15. That means that with more laborers to choose from one might expect productivity to go up as competition increases (as long as owners can still fire lazy ass employees) Also, some people who would do a half assed job for 8 bucks an hour may feel like doing an honest days work now that they are getting a wage that is more to their liking. Getting back to the kids though, if I am an employer that hires a lot of kids for a year or two before they move on because that is all that applies to my business because all I pay is 8 bucks an hour I may use this opportunity to get some long term help. like that single mother with two kids who may really want to get a job to support her family and she may be willing to work for me for 20 years rather than 2 because now she may actually be making a livable wage. You may not see those high school kids working at those fast food joints as much anymore and maybe the people working there will deserve it.

Of course if it screws up my $1.00 breakfast burrito and large coke you can bet someone will hear about it.


I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
Offline Wade  
#4 Posted : Monday, July 14, 2014 10:55:44 AM(UTC)
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Idiots.

Those who get the minimum will be better off.

*If* the jobs are kept.

Expect longer lines wherever clerks/etc. are minimum-wage workers....because there aren't going to be as many of them as there used to be.

If I was a small business person in Seattle, I'd be looking to move. Because while Starbucks may be able pay its baristas an extra $6/hour out of petty cash, the notion that a small business can just increase its worker's pay by 60% is simply ludicrous.

None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
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Offline wpr  
#5 Posted : Monday, July 14, 2014 11:31:38 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: sschind Go to Quoted Post
On the surface I agree with you, it would seem that prices of goods and services would have to go up and then yeah, who would benefit from that. I can see some potential benefits however and not just to the people now making twice as much.

What I think will happen in these places is that the kids or people with advanced ages will be looking for work while people trying to support families may finally be able to get jobs that will allow them to do just that. In the long run that may be what is needed, getting people in the jobs that need them the most.

If we assume for a minute the the number of jobs will not change (perhaps not an accurate assumption at all since places might be more inclined to go with 1 full time worker rather than two or three part timers) employers are theoretically going to have more laborers to choose from. People who would not consider flipping burgers for 8 or 9 bucks an hour will now for 15. That means that with more laborers to choose from one might expect productivity to go up as competition increases (as long as owners can still fire lazy ass employees) Also, some people who would do a half assed job for 8 bucks an hour may feel like doing an honest days work now that they are getting a wage that is more to their liking. Getting back to the kids though, if I am an employer that hires a lot of kids for a year or two before they move on because that is all that applies to my business because all I pay is 8 bucks an hour I may use this opportunity to get some long term help. like that single mother with two kids who may really want to get a job to support her family and she may be willing to work for me for 20 years rather than 2 because now she may actually be making a livable wage. You may not see those high school kids working at those fast food joints as much anymore and maybe the people working there will deserve it.

Of course if it screws up my $1.00 breakfast burrito and large coke you can bet someone will hear about it.




The problem with assuming people will work harder if they get paid more is it doesn't work. The same for the concept that people who were not in the work force now because the pay was too low will now suddenly come flocking out.

People who are motivated to work hard do not do so because of their pay check. They have other goals in mind like Zero. He put himself through college. I have seen many people get a raise, they are happy for about an hour and then drop right back into their old work habits. Generalizing the point, someone who chooses another option such as some form of public aid often uses low wages as an excuse not to work. I have seen way too many people get 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet. I have seen couples have 3-4 jobs between them plus whatever jobs their kids come up with to believe $10 an hour for a job keeps people at home. They are there because they choose to be there.

Dakota works his regular union job, wrangles his bees and does taxes in season. He is a hard working guy. Others not so much. Dakota will always work hard. Others not so much.
"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em." Chesty Puller



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Offline DakotaT  
#6 Posted : Monday, July 14, 2014 4:06:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Idiots.

Those who get the minimum will be better off.

*If* the jobs are kept.

Expect longer lines wherever clerks/etc. are minimum-wage workers....because there aren't going to be as many of them as there used to be.

If I was a small business person in Seattle, I'd be looking to move. Because while Starbucks may be able pay its baristas an extra $6/hour out of petty cash, the notion that a small business can just increase its worker's pay by 60% is simply ludicrous.



The problem is that wages have not kept up with inflation over the last 30 years. Hmmmm, let me just take a shot in the dark at why that is! Oh yeah, trickle down economics was suppose to keep all the classes happy wasn't it. Too bad all the greedy fucking business owners took all the tax breaks but didn't trickle anything down. If I was student, I'd pummel your ass on your views daily, well, until you kicked me out of class.

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Offline sschind  
#7 Posted : Monday, July 14, 2014 8:25:58 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
The problem with assuming people will work harder if they get paid more is it doesn't work. The same for the concept that people who were not in the work force now because the pay was too low will now suddenly come flocking out.

People who are motivated to work hard do not do so because of their pay check. They have other goals in mind like Zero. He put himself through college. I have seen many people get a raise, they are happy for about an hour and then drop right back into their old work habits. Generalizing the point, someone who chooses another option such as some form of public aid often uses low wages as an excuse not to work. I have seen way too many people get 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet. I have seen couples have 3-4 jobs between them plus whatever jobs their kids come up with to believe $10 an hour for a job keeps people at home. They are there because they choose to be there.

Dakota works his regular union job, wrangles his bees and does taxes in season. He is a hard working guy. Others not so much. Dakota will always work hard. Others not so much.


I agree that a higher wage may not automatically make everyone want to work or work harder. Studies have shown that pay is not at the top of the list for motivated workers. However, it may make people who do have a good work ethic choose to work in one of these new minimum wage jobs which could increase production.

As far as people being motivated like Zero the 15 bucks an hour won't make a difference to them because it still won't be enough and they will still want to improve their lot in life. As for the people working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet or the couple's with 3-4 jobs maybe now they can cut back on one of them and spend more time with their kids which may have a great positive impact on society.

I spent the last 15 years of my life running a one man pet shop because I could not afford to hire anyone so almost doubling the minimum wage would not have hurt me but it certainly would have absolutely ruled out the chance of me hiring someone if I would have wanted to.

I see a lot of small businesses being forced to close, move, or cut back on staffing. For this reason I do not agree with the 15 bucks an hour. I was just trying to look at potential benefits, I was not trying to say the potential benefits outweighed the potential drawbacks. One thing I do see is a shift from younger (high school age) or older (wall mart greeter types) more transient workers to more stable long term employees.

Another thing is this, the 15 bucks an hour will not only affect new employees. Lets say you have a couple of employees who have worked for you for 5 or 6 years and they have been steady employees. They have worked themselves up through regular pay raises to 12 bucks an hour. Now the new law kicks in and they have to be paid 15 bucks an hour. Ok, you bite the bullet because they are good employees and you can swing it. Now you hire a couple of new kids and you have to pay him 15 bucks an hour as well. The good employees now have to train the new guys who may not be such good employees but they will be getting the same amount of money. How long do you think the current guys will stand for that? What sort of pay raise schedule do you work out for them after that. Lets say you policy has been to give 35 cents per hour every 6 months. Do you stick with that? Guys that have twice the time on the job will either be making the same amount of money or you will have to have different pay raise schedules for time of service. All of that could factor negatively into employee moral as well.

What I really want to see is all those slackers who have pushed so hard for this and will lose their jobs because they simply are not worth 15 bucks and they are replaced or their businesses have to close or move, start complaining when they can't find work. I wonder how the government will step in and take care of them then?

I don't know all the details but something tells me there will be several loopholes involved and not every person working in every job will automatically make 15 bucks an hour and the businesses that learn to take advantage of those loopholes will benefit the most.

I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
Offline wpr  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 4:58:38 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: sschind Go to Quoted Post
I agree that a higher wage may not automatically make everyone want to work or work harder. Studies have shown that pay is not at the top of the list for motivated workers. However, it may make people who do have a good work ethic choose to work in one of these new minimum wage jobs which could increase production.

As far as people being motivated like Zero the 15 bucks an hour won't make a difference to them because it still won't be enough and they will still want to improve their lot in life. As for the people working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet or the couple's with 3-4 jobs maybe now they can cut back on one of them and spend more time with their kids which may have a great positive impact on society.

I spent the last 15 years of my life running a one man pet shop because I could not afford to hire anyone so almost doubling the minimum wage would not have hurt me but it certainly would have absolutely ruled out the chance of me hiring someone if I would have wanted to.

I see a lot of small businesses being forced to close, move, or cut back on staffing. For this reason I do not agree with the 15 bucks an hour. I was just trying to look at potential benefits, I was not trying to say the potential benefits outweighed the potential drawbacks. One thing I do see is a shift from younger (high school age) or older (wall mart greeter types) more transient workers to more stable long term employees.

Another thing is this, the 15 bucks an hour will not only affect new employees. Lets say you have a couple of employees who have worked for you for 5 or 6 years and they have been steady employees. They have worked themselves up through regular pay raises to 12 bucks an hour. Now the new law kicks in and they have to be paid 15 bucks an hour. Ok, you bite the bullet because they are good employees and you can swing it. Now you hire a couple of new kids and you have to pay him 15 bucks an hour as well. The good employees now have to train the new guys who may not be such good employees but they will be getting the same amount of money. How long do you think the current guys will stand for that? What sort of pay raise schedule do you work out for them after that. Lets say you policy has been to give 35 cents per hour every 6 months. Do you stick with that? Guys that have twice the time on the job will either be making the same amount of money or you will have to have different pay raise schedules for time of service. All of that could factor negatively into employee moral as well.

What I really want to see is all those slackers who have pushed so hard for this and will lose their jobs because they simply are not worth 15 bucks and they are replaced or their businesses have to close or move, start complaining when they can't find work. I wonder how the government will step in and take care of them then?

I don't know all the details but something tells me there will be several loopholes involved and not every person working in every job will automatically make 15 bucks an hour and the businesses that learn to take advantage of those loopholes will benefit the most.



I agree with you. Didn't mean to imply you thought the benefit of the increase was greater than the cost of the increase.
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Offline DakotaT  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 3:27:29 PM(UTC)
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I pay my top guys $17 an hour and my daughter and partner's grandson $12 an hour for now until they prove they can handle the work; and we are still making good coin. Minimum wage is bullshit and has always been. It is a tool in order to keep people down and is an embarrassment on this industrialized country.

Any argument you clowns want to throw at me on this topic I will refute, with one exception, compression. Doubling minimum wage is not fair to the moderate wage earners already making $15 - $20 an hour.
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Offline wpr  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 8:22:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
I pay my top guys $17 an hour and my daughter and partner's grandson $12 an hour for now until they prove they can handle the work; and we are still making good coin. Minimum wage is bullshit and has always been. It is a tool in order to keep people down and is an embarrassment on this industrialized country.

Any argument you clowns want to throw at me on this topic I will refute, with one exception, compression. Doubling minimum wage is not fair to the moderate wage earners already making $15 - $20 an hour.


sorry you are not special. Every farm I worked on, every farmer I have ever talked to payed much more than min wage even to high school kids. As you pointed out there is real hard work being done. Flipping burgers or getting someone a cup of coffee not so much.
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Offline DakotaT  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2014 8:55:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
sorry you are not special. Every farm I worked on, every farmer I have ever talked to payed much more than min wage even to high school kids. As you pointed out there is real hard work being done. Flipping burgers or getting someone a cup of coffee not so much.


And neither is sitting a desk and fucking people considered hard work in any way shape or form. I'm all for helping people get ahead, and I sure as hell am never going to be a fuckstick trying to keep poor people poor, which is exactly all of you opposing raising minimum wage increases are doing. But make sure you all get to church on Sunday and reaffirm what good people you are.
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Offline wpr  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:23:25 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
And neither is sitting a desk and fucking people considered hard work in any way shape or form. I'm all for helping people get ahead, and I sure as hell am never going to be a fuckstick trying to keep poor people poor, which is exactly all of you opposing raising minimum wage increases are doing. But make sure you all get to church on Sunday and reaffirm what good people you are.


I am all for poor people getting ahead. Flipping burgers and what not is not hard work. It doesn't merit making making $31,000 a year. They need to get an education. (Something many of the poor have scorned when they were in grade school and high school.) Then go get one of the those easy jobs that you hate so much.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, July 16, 2014 7:22:34 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
And neither is sitting a desk and fucking people considered hard work in any way shape or form. I'm all for helping people get ahead, and I sure as hell am never going to be a fuckstick trying to keep poor people poor, which is exactly all of you opposing raising minimum wage increases are doing. But make sure you all get to church on Sunday and reaffirm what good people you are.


Hard work doesn't mean higher compensation. Work that not everyone can do does. Who cannot flip burgers? Who cannot press two buttons at the same time? Who cannot say "Welcome to Walmart!" all day long? These are the type of jobs I disagree with being paid $30k a year for.

Athletes get insanely pay because of why? They can do something most others cannot.

Menial jobs should be paid as such and used as a stepping stone to greater opportunities.

If you want to earn more, learn a marketable skill/trade to do so. You don't whine about how the President is failing YOU because YOU can't support your SIX kids off flipping burgers.

I would concede opposing this raise if it meant that employee's would not lose any benefits or perks and also the services and products would not increase in price. That simply won't happen though. And this raise increase will close doors to small businesses and stunt economic small business growth. Any true American can see how bad this is for us all.

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Offline sschind  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, July 16, 2014 8:31:32 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Kevin Go to Quoted Post

If you want to earn more, learn a marketable skill/trade to do so. You don't whine about how the President is failing YOU because YOU can't support your SIX kids off flipping burgers.



I only have 5 kids and I am the assistant french fry machine technician but your point is well taken. However, deserve 15 bucks an hour because my understudy is so stupid that there is no way he could do what I do. Wait ... you mean he will be making 15 bucks and hour too? That's just not fair. I think I'll quit. let them see how backed up the fry fryer gets with that pimple faced little Jimmy snot nose running it

I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
Offline DakotaT  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, July 16, 2014 10:01:17 AM(UTC)
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The arrogance and lack of humility in this forum pisses me off. At least a burger flipper has a bead of sweat dripping down his face once in a while. People working those "menial" jobs are an absolute necessity in this country of lazy fucks that can't even cook a meal for themselves anymore. I've met a whole lof of worhtless "professionals" in my day, that don't deserve their paychecks, not even close.

Besides, a lot of the higher paying skilled jobs were shipped overseas - or don't any of you geniuses actually pay attention to what the people you vote for do.
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