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wpr
  • wpr
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2020-05-25T03:57:20Z
Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 

Even more damaging than the lists of side effects on drug inserts is the chaos of VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Effect Reporting System). If you report that your daughter died in a car accident six weeks after getting a vaccine, that goes in as an adverse event. If you report that a vaccine transformed you into the Incredible Hulk or Wonder Woman , the bureaucrats will dutifully enter that information into the database for the rest of the world to find on Google. They don't have a choice—it's required by law.

The data is worse than meaningless. It's dangerously misleading.

You know how many deaths have been causally linked to Gardisil since it was introduced in 2006? Zero. Motherfucking zero. But I bet that won't find that out on the first or even the tenth website that pops up in Google. Maybe not even the twentieth. Meanwhile, deaths from cervical cancer, which historically was one of the top two or three cancer killers of women worldwide, have plummeted over 90 percent since the advent of Pap smears and now Gardisil. Yet people are so panicked over apocryphal reports of girls committing suicide months after getting the shot that they refuse to immunize their children. To this day, barely twenty percent of boys are getting vaccinated against HPV, despite the fact that we are experiencing an explosion of oral and throat cancer among men in this country, treatments for which are grotesquely disfiguring.

It's immoral and it's evil, that's what it is.



A few days ago I heard the Fed is considering reducing the listed side effects to the few that are probable and serious. (My words not theirs)
Seems that they are concerned the side effect message is being lost on the masses with so many stupid and unlikely ones.
KRK
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
2020-05-25T05:09:22Z
In regard to lockdown health and human costs, this is a letter form 500 Doctors to POTUS
Quote:


President Donald J. Trump
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20500

May 19, 2020

Dear Mr. President:

Thousands of physicians in all specialties and from all States would like to express our gratitude for your leadership. We write to you today to express our alarm over the exponentially growing negative health consequences of the national shutdown.In medical terms, the shutdown was a mass casualty incident.During a mass casualty incident, victims are immediately triaged to black, red,yellow, or green.

The first group, triage level black, includes those who require too many resources to save during a mass crisis. The red group has severe injuries that are survivable with treatment, the yellow group has serious injuries that are not immediately life threatening, and the green group has minor injuries. The red group receives highest priority. The next priority is to ensure that the other two groups do not deteriorate a level. Decades of research have shown that by strictly following this algorithm, we save the maximum number of lives.Millions of Americans are already at triage level red. These include 150,000 Americans per month who would have had a new cancer detected through routine screening that hasn’t happened, millions who have missed routine dental care to fix problems strongly linked to heart disease/death, and preventable cases of stroke, heart attack, and child abuse.

Suicide hotline phone calls have increased 600%.Tens of millions are at triage level yellow. Liquor sales have increased 300-600%,cigarettes sales have increased, rent has gone unpaid, family relationships have become frayed, and millions of well-child check-ups have been missed.Hundreds of millions are at triage level green. These are people who currently are solvent, but at risk should economic conditions worsen. Poverty and financial uncertainty is closely linked to poor health. A continued shutdown means hundreds of millions of Americans will downgrade a level. The following are real examples from our practices.

Patient E.S. is a mother with two children whose office job was reduced to part-time and whose husband was furloughed. The father is drinking more, the mother is depressed and not managing her diabetes well, and the children are barely doing any schoolwork.

Patient A.F. has chronic but previously stable health conditions. Her elective hip replacement was delayed, which caused her to become nearly sedentary, resulting in a pulmonary embolism in April.

Patient R.T. is an elderly nursing home patient, who had a small stroke in early March but was expected to make a nearly complete recovery. Since the shutdown, he has had no physical or speech therapy, and no visitors. He has lost weight, and is deteriorating rather than making progress.

Patient S.O. is a college freshman who cannot return to normal life, school, and friendships. He risks depression, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, trauma, and future financial uncertainty.We are alarmed at what appears to be the lack of consideration for the future health of our patients.

The downstream health effects of deteriorating a level are being massively under-estimated and under-reported. This is an order of magnitude error.It is impossible to overstate the short, medium, and long-term harm to people’s health with a continued shutdown. Losing a job is one of life’s most stressful events, and the effect on a person’s health is not lessened because it also has happened to 30 million other people. Keeping schools and universities closed is incalculably detrimental for children, teenagers, and young adults for decades to come.

The millions of casualties of a continued shutdown will be hiding in plain sight,but they will be called alcoholism, homelessness, suicide, heart attack, stroke, or kidney failure. In youths it will be called financial instability, unemployment, despair, drug addiction, unplanned pregnancies, poverty, and abuse.Because the harm is diffuse, there are those who hold that it does not exist. We,the undersigned, know otherwise.Please let us know if we may be of assistance.

Cheesey
2020-05-25T21:23:19Z
Dang it KRK! How DARE you show that factual letter in here!
(Seriously, I’m glad you did!)
all_about_da_packers
2020-05-27T00:52:16Z
Originally Posted by: Cheesey 

An actual cure might never be found. And if they do find a vaccine, it could take years. And to know what long time side effects are also unknown. Just watch TV and see lawyer ads against drugs that have ended up causing worse problems.
They can’t even cure a common cold.
So keep the country on lockdown until when?
First it was a couple weeks, then a month, then 2 months. Now how long? Let people choose to stay home or go out and back to work.



This is misleading - never have I seen an add in the United States (nor Canada) that affirms a drug causing worse problems. Speaking as someone who is knowledgeable about this, law firms do run commercials asking people taking certain medication to contact them if they have experienced certain symptoms or health problems - this has, in my experience, always been in the context of having people reach out to a law firm for the purpose of establishing a class action against the drug manufacturer. In other words, such ads are like infomercials: seeking to promote a product of a law firm (particularly class actions, which are big business for law firms) to the general public in order to have more people join the lawsuit against the drug manufacturer (by calling the phone number provided) because a class action has to be certified by a judge in order to go forward in the court system - and one requirement to be certified is showing a big enough group people. Judging the efficacy of medicine (or really anything) by law firm ads is wrong.

The above, honestly, kinda also shows the reason to not tell a person who is a professional in a field that they are ignoring facts relating to something that ties into their field. The issue isn't whether or not people can have differences in opinion (different opinions should obviously be encouraged), but the wisdom of telling someone who is actually qualified on an issue by having lived, breathed and studied the topic at issue (the Mueller Report, impeachment, etc.) that they are missing something or uninformed about it because you read a lot of articles and/or saw a lot of videos/news clips discussing about it.

And, speaking as someone whose most recent work involved advising life sciences / pharmaceutical companies and whose partner is a doctor, a vaccine will exist in record time for COVID-19. Other than conjecture, I'm not sure I have heard anyone suggest no vaccine will ever be found - the amount of resources being poured into creating a vaccine, the previous research to build on regarding other coronavirus strains, the unheard of urgency and expediency being shown by the FDA for COVID-19 trials, the number of life sciences companies seeking to raise capital to fund their ongoing COVID-19 initiatives, and the sheer gold mine that is a COVID-19 vaccine all make the existence of a vaccine a damn-near certainty. As for curing the common cold - flu vaccines are designed to be proactive - comprised to combat virus strains that medical professionals believe will be prevalent that season. Since such vaccines are always projections of what virus strains could be most common, it isn't surprising such flu-vaccines are not always 100% effective.

This is the biggest problem with conservatives and GOP supporters (and I'm speaking as someone who does NOT wholeheartedly support the "Trump has mismanaged this pandemic" view) - the sheer scare tactics and straw-men arguments being created in order to advance reopening are disappointing and nonsensical. A vaccine will be found in record time, social distancing was necessary (as well as restricting travel from abroad), more staggered and delayed economic reopenings would assist in managing the spread of COVID-19, COVID-19 is a pandemic of unseen portions in modern times ... all these can be true but still lead to the conclusion that states should be emphasizing reopening and restarting their economies because modern life in almost every facet is underpinned by the need for a stable economy and work activity. And, in various and multiple ways, a "stable economy" and "work activity" globally depend on the U.S. as its engine that is actually running (i.e., the states being open and operating). No need to resort to scare tactics or arguments devoid of logic.
all_about_da_packers
2020-05-27T01:05:26Z
Originally Posted by: KRK 

Regrettably

Quote:

COVID-19 Expert: Virus Will Rage Until Infection Rate Hits 60%-70%’
By Eric A. Blair
Published May 12, 2020 at 2:18pm

Isolation doesn’t work...
And because the coronavirus can be asymptomatic in as many as 50% of those infected, there are likely millions who have already had the virus but didn’t even know...

The survey suggested that the death rate from the virus could be as low as 0.18% of COVID-19 patients, which means the actual death rate in the city is far lower than reported.



Just my opinion, but the issue I have with such articles is that they make an assumption to one set of data that isn't also being applied to another set of data. The article can't assume under-reporting COVID-19 positive results, but then go on acting like the reported death-counts numbers are accurate. That feels like skewing the data to be biased to a result you want (hey guys, more people were infected than we know, but exactly the same number died, so the virus isn't that serious).

And, for what its worth, I'm all for reopening things now - but shoddy math / data interpretation in journalism is still bad analysis.
Cheesey
2020-05-27T02:26:38Z
It’s been reported that many states are raising the actual numbers of covid deaths to get more government money. I have stated it before, and now my assumption has been shown to be true.
Common sense along with opening things up should lower the amount of people getting sick.
What I don’t understand is people thinking automatically that a vaccine will be found quickly, or at all. The common cold still has no cure. Do I hope they come up with a vaccine? Heck yes! But there’s no guarantee. And we can’t keep the country closed until they come up with one.
Social distancing and common sense will help until then.
all_about_da_packers
2020-05-27T10:14:27Z
Originally Posted by: Cheesey 

What I don’t understand is people thinking automatically that a vaccine will be found quickly, or at all. The common cold still has no cure. Do I hope they come up with a vaccine? Heck yes! But there’s no guarantee. And we can’t keep the country closed until they come up with one.
Social distancing and common sense will help until then.



Again, you ignore the science dude. Many countries are in the clinical trial stages of COVID-19 vaccines, with medical journals (Lancet, for example, less than a week ago) reporting the clinical trial results so far have been promising for these vaccines. Governments of countries are literally underwriting scientific efforts to develop a vaccine at a remarkable rate, not to mention the investment banks underwriting deals for life science companies working towards COVID-19 treatments and vaccines in an otherwise dead period for global capital markets. Moderna literally had a $1.3 billion dollar public offering last week on the strength of its vaccine trials with the optimistic forecasts having an emergency vaccine ready by December.

There will be a vaccine. There is literally ample evidence suggesting this, along with actual clinical trials that have resulted in anti-bodies developing in those that were given the vaccines in trials. The common-cold cure has nothing to do with what the science says right now about COVID-19.

I get you have an opinion - but there isn't a point in asserting your opinion on vaccines as fact. Particularly when the science doesn't back up the opinion strongly. And I don't mean to suggest your conclusion is wrong - I'm all for opening the country up before then (and Georgia is a prime example of opening up not being doom and gloom, despite what many (including I) thought was a wrong decision to open up early). But your opinion on a COVID-19 vaccine is not supported by the facts.
KRK
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2020-05-27T12:51:51Z
There are very compelling charts/graph etc in the article which, I remain, to stupid to figure out how to post...highlights of text below.

https://www.conservative...avirus-death-rate-media/ 
Horowitz: The CDC confirms remarkably low coronavirus death rate. Where is the media?
Daniel Horowitz · May 22, 2020

Most people are more likely to wind up six feet under because of almost anything else under the sun other than COVID-19.
The CDC just came out with a report https://www.cdc.gov/coro.../planning-scenarios.html  that should be earth-shattering to the narrative of the political class, yet it will go into the thick pile of vital data and information about the virus that is not getting out to the public. For the first time, the CDC has attempted to offer a real estimate of the overall death rate for COVID-19, and under its most likely scenario, the number is 0.26%. Officials estimate a 0.4% fatality rate among those who are symptomatic and project a 35% rate of asymptomatic cases among those infected, which drops the overall infection fatality rate (IFR) to just 0.26% — almost exactly where Stanford researchers pegged it a month ago.

Plus, ultimately we might find out that the IFR is even lower because numerous studies and hard counts of confined populations have shown a much higher percentage of asymptomatic cases. Simply adjusting for a 50% asymptomatic rate would drop their fatality rate to 0.2% – exactly the rate of fatality Dr. John Ionnidis of Stanford University projected.

More importantly, as I mentioned before, the overall death rate is meaningless because the numbers are so lopsided. Given that at least half of the deaths were in nursing homes, a back-of-the-envelope estimate would show that the infection fatality rate for non-nursing home residents would only be 0.1% or 1 in 1,000. And that includes people of all ages and all health statuses outside of nursing homes. Since nearly all of the deaths are those with comorbidities.

The CDC estimates the death rate from COVID-19 for those under 50 is 1 in 5,000 for those with symptoms, which would be 1 in 6,725 overall, but again, almost all those who die have specific comorbidities or underlying conditions. Those without them are more likely to die in a car accident. And schoolchildren, whose lives, mental health, and education we are destroying, are more likely to get struck by lightning
Cheesey
2020-05-27T16:36:58Z
Originally Posted by: all_about_da_packers 

Again, you ignore the science dude. Many countries are in the clinical trial stages of COVID-19 vaccines, with medical journals (Lancet, for example, less than a week ago) reporting the clinical trial results so far have been promising for these vaccines. Governments of countries are literally underwriting scientific efforts to develop a vaccine at a remarkable rate, not to mention the investment banks underwriting deals for life science companies working towards COVID-19 treatments and vaccines in an otherwise dead period for global capital markets. Moderna literally had a $1.3 billion dollar public offering last week on the strength of its vaccine trials with the optimistic forecasts having an emergency vaccine ready by December.

There will be a vaccine. There is literally ample evidence suggesting this, along with actual clinical trials that have resulted in anti-bodies developing in those that were given the vaccines in trials. The common-cold cure has nothing to do with what the science says right now about COVID-19.

I get you have an opinion - but there isn't a point in asserting your opinion on vaccines as fact. Particularly when the science doesn't back up the opinion strongly. And I don't mean to suggest your conclusion is wrong - I'm all for opening the country up before then (and Georgia is a prime example of opening up not being doom and gloom, despite what many (including I) thought was a wrong decision to open up early). But your opinion on a COVID-19 vaccine is not supported by the facts.



Dude, 🤪 yes, they are saying they are close to a vaccine. But “close” doesn’t mean it’s a done deal, does it? And “science” believes we evolved from a rock “millions of years ago”. So my faith in science is not 100%.
Do I hope you are right, and they come up with one soon? Yup! But being as they are trying to do this quickly, how will they have any idea the long term side effects of the vaccine? They usually take years to come up with vaccines, and take years testing it to see what it might do to people long term.
I do hope you are right.
Zero2Cool
2020-05-28T12:29:26Z
Originally Posted by: wpr 

A few days ago I heard the Fed is considering reducing the listed side effects to the few that are probable and serious. (My words not theirs)
Seems that they are concerned the side effect message is being lost on the masses with so many stupid and unlikely ones.



I think that's a good idea. Someone ignorant like myself hears possible death as a side effect for medicine for diarrhea (just a random example, not true) I'm gonna be like yeah ya know what, I'm gonna just deal with the squirts for a few days, eat some Chicken Noodle Soup and call it good. When in fact driving a car also has a side effect of possible death and that possibility could be ten fold higher!

One thing regarding vaccines and such is I ask the doctor what the Number Needed to Treat is. When the doctor tells me my daughters need X, Y, Z shots, she knows to give me sheets of information for me to read over. I then look up studies (be careful doing this, not every study includes the data or sample size!) and ask the doctor. One of them was I read some bad side effects for a vaccine she recommended. She told me its true, those side effects do happen ... WHEN .. the 2nd and 3rd shots are not taken at the appropriate time. She said as long as 2nd shot is taken X weeks after first, and 3rd shot taken Y weeks after 2nd shot, the risks drop dramatically. I was able to find information that supported that.

I hate doing that to the doctor (who is THE professional), but a lot of times it is more so for my peace of mind. I just wish it was easier to find truthful information.

When it comes to COVID-19 I struggle with taking a vaccine for it. I want to because I don't want to be a carrier that give sit to someone else who cannot battle through it. I don't want to because scientifically altering things in my body feels wrong. But, I eat processed shit so... just shows you how little I know about all of it. lol.
wpr
  • wpr
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2020-05-28T18:08:48Z
Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



I hate doing that to the doctor (who is THE professional), but a lot of times it is more so for my peace of mind. I just wish it was easier to find truthful information.


The Dr probably wishes she had more patients/parents like you. Most don't give a damn or put the whole burden on the Dr when it's really your child.
The treatment wasn't available when my daughter was young. A few years ago I saw one of the commercials and told my wife, "damn, I hope we didn't mess this up. How did we miss getting her the treatment?" She told me it wasn't available then.

So, good job Z.
KRK
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  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
2020-05-28T19:18:21Z
Aside here.

Does it bug any of you that the television ads for any drug spend 15+ seconds talking about the side effect. It's a frigging prescription drug!!! The Dr. prescribing it and the pharmacist should both know what they are and they are on the label.

The extra 15 seconds in ads just drives up the cost of drugs.

Before you take any drug, or consume anything for that matter, find out the side effects. If you don't think they are worth the risks, don't take them.
Cheesey
2020-05-28T22:39:51Z
Originally Posted by: KRK 

Aside here.

Does it bug any of you that the television ads for any drug spend 15+ seconds talking about the side effect. It's a frigging prescription drug!!! The Dr. prescribing it and the pharmacist should both know what they are and they are on the label.

The extra 15 seconds in ads just drives up the cost of drugs.

Before you take any drug, or consume anything for that matter, find out the side effects. If you don't think they are worth the risks, don't take them.



Did you also notice that while they are telling you the 30 side effects, they play “cutesy” music and show smiling happy people?😁
Nonstopdrivel
2020-05-28T23:08:56Z
Originally Posted by: KRK 

Does it bug any of you that the television ads for any drug spend 15+ seconds talking about the side effect.


It's required by law. And all it does is foment distrust and anxiety.
Cheesey
2020-05-28T23:42:18Z
Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 

It's required by law. And all it does is foment distrust and anxiety.



That’s ok......I’m sure they have a pill for that!
😂😂😂
Zero2Cool
2020-05-29T11:52:37Z
Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 

It's required by law. And all it does is foment distrust and anxiety.



Especially to those who have no damn clue whatsoever. (such as me)
wpr
  • wpr
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2020-05-29T16:18:26Z
Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 

It's required by law. And all it does is foment distrust and anxiety.



I've been listening to a podcast by an Adman out of Canada called "Under The Influence". It's pretty interesting. He has mentioned several times about the Feds requiring equal time for listing the side effects of meds. (I have heard 9 seasons worth of episodes in the past month so I can not quote him verbatim.) Canadian laws are much more restrictive when it comes to Rx ads but I don't remember the particulars.
KRK
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  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
2020-06-03T14:57:21Z
Quote:

Epidemiologist Who Triggered Worldwide Lockdowns Admits:
Without Instituting Full Lockdown, Sweden Essentially Getting Same Effect
By Hank Berrien Jun 2nd, 2020 DailyWire.com
https://www.dailywire.co...p;utm_campaign=position1 

On Tuesday, Professor Neil Ferguson, of Imperial College London, whose bleak projections of future deaths from COVID-19 influenced governments around the world to institute massive lockdowns, admitted of Sweden, which did not institute harsh lockdowns, “It is interesting that adopting a policy which is short of a full lockdown – they have closed secondary schools and universities and there is a significant amount of social distancing, but it’s not a full lockdown – they have got quite a long way to the same effect.”

Speaking before a House of Lords Science and Technology Committee, the man who half a million Britons could die from Covid-19 spoke of Sweden, whose 436 people per million mortality rate from the coronavirus is significantly lower than the UK’s 575 people per million. The Daily Mail noted, “As well as fewer deaths, Sweden’s GDP actually grew in the first quarter of 2020, suggesting it might avoid the worst of the economic fallout from the crisis"

Ferguson admitted, “’There are differences in how science has influenced policies in different countries. I have the greatest respect for scientists there [in Sweden]. They came to a different policy conclusion but based really on quite similar science.” Asked why 4,000 people had died in Sweden instead of the 90,000 that had been forecast, he answered, “I think it’s an interesting question. It’s clear there have been significant social distancing in Sweden. Our best estimate is that that has led to a reduction in the reproduction number to around 1.” He cautioned, “It’s clear that when you look at their mortality, they are not seeing the rate of decline most European countries are seeing.”

He admitted, “But nevertheless it is interesting that adopting a policy which is short of a full lockdown… they’ve gone quite a long way to [achieving] the same effect,” while adding, “’Although there is no evidence of a rapid decline in the same way in other European countries. That is something we’re looking at very closely.” Then he acknowledged, “Lockdown is a very crude policy and what we’d like to do is have a much more targeted approach that does not have the same economic impacts.”

Ferguson added, “I suspect though, under any scenario that levels of transmission and numbers of cases will remain relatively flat between now and September, short of very big policy changes or behavior changes in the community. The real uncertainty then is if there are larger policy changes in September, of course we move into time of year when respiratory viruses tend to transmit slightly better, what will happen then. And that remains very unclear.”

The Imperial College London model headed by Ferguson surmised as many as 2.2 million Americans could have died from the virus if no action were taken. It also suggested 510,000 people would die in the U.K. without a lockdown and 250,000 if mitigating steps were taken.

Business Insider noted, “In 2009, one of Ferguson’s models predicted 65,000 people could die from the Swine Flu outbreak in the UK — the final figure was below 500.” Business Insider also noted, “Michael Thrusfield, a professor of veterinary epidemiology at Edinburgh University, told the paper he had ‘déjà vu’ after reading the Imperial paper, saying Ferguson was responsible for excessive animal culling during the 2001 Foot and Mouth outbreak. Ferguson warned the . . .

KRK
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2020-06-04T22:15:14Z
kind of long, but interesting....explains alot:
Quote:

Coronavirus May Be a Blood Vessel Disease, Which Explains Everything
Many of the infection’s bizarre symptoms have one thing in common
Dana G Smith May 29 · 8 min read

https://elemental.medium...-everything-2c4032481ab2 

In April, blood clots emerged as one of the many mysterious symptoms attributed to Covid-19, a disease that had initially been thought to largely affect the lungs in the form of pneumonia. Quickly after came reports of young people dying due to coronavirus-related strokes. Next it was Covid toes — painful red or purple digits.

What do all of these symptoms have in common? An impairment in blood circulation. Add in the fact that 40% of deaths from Covid-19 are related to cardiovascular complications, and the disease starts to look like a vascular infection instead of a purely respiratory one.

Months into the pandemic, there is now a growing body of evidence to support the theory that the novel coronavirus can infect blood vessels, which could explain not only the high prevalence of blood clots, strokes, and heart attacks, but also provide an answer for the diverse set of head-to-toe symptoms that have emerged.

“All these Covid-associated complications were a mystery. We see blood clotting, we see kidney damage, we see inflammation of the heart, we see stroke, we see encephalitis [swelling of the brain],” says William Li, MD, president of the Angiogenesis Foundation. “A whole myriad of seemingly unconnected phenomena that you do not normally see with SARS or H1N1 or, frankly, most infectious diseases.”

“If you start to put all of the data together that’s emerging, it turns out that this virus is probably a vasculotropic virus, meaning that it affects the [blood vessels],” says Mandeep Mehra, MD, medical director of the Brigham and Women’s Hospital Heart and Vascular Center.

In a paper published in April in the scientific journal The Lancet, Mehra and a team of scientists discovered that the SARS-CoV-2 virus can infect the endothelial cells that line the inside of blood vessels. Endothelial cells protect the cardiovascular system, and they release proteins that influence everything from blood clotting to the immune response. In the paper, the scientists showed damage to endothelial cells in the lungs, heart, kidneys, liver, and intestines in people with Covid-19.

“The concept that’s emerging is that this is not a respiratory illness alone, this is a respiratory illness to start with, but it is actually a vascular illness that kills people through its involvement of the vasculature,” says Mehra.

A respiratory virus infecting blood cells and circulating through the body is virtually unheard of.

A one-of-a-kind respiratory virus

SARS-CoV-2 is thought to enter the body through ACE2 receptors present on the surface of cells that line the respiratory tract in the nose and throat. Once in the lungs, the virus appears to move from the alveoli, the air sacs in the lung, into the blood vessels, which are also rich in ACE2 receptors.

“[The virus] enters the lung, it destroys the lung tissue, and people start coughing. The destruction of the lung tissue breaks open some blood
vessels,” Mehra explains. “Then it starts to infect endothelial cell after endothelial cell, creates a local immune response, and inflames the endothelium.”

A respiratory virus infecting blood cells and circulating through the body is virtually unheard of. Influenza viruses like H1N1 are not known to do this, and the original SARS virus, a sister coronavirus to the current infection, did not spread past the lung. Other types of viruses, such as Ebola or Dengue, can damage endothelial cells, but they are very different from viruses that typically infect the lungs.

Benhur Lee, MD, a professor of microbiology at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, says the difference between SARS and SARS-CoV-2 likely stems from an extra protein each of the viruses requires to activate and spread. Although both viruses dock onto cells through ACE2 receptors, another protein is needed to crack open the virus so its genetic material can get into the infected cell. The additional protein the original SARS virus requires is only present in lung tissue, but the protein for SARS-CoV-2 to activate is present in all cells, especially endothelial cells.

“In SARS1, the protein that’s required to cleave it is likely present only in the lung environment, so that’s where it can replicate. To my knowledge, it doesn’t really go systemic,” Lee says. “[SARS-CoV-2] is cleaved by a protein called furin, and that’s a big danger because furin is present in all our cells, it’s ubiquitous.”

Endothelial damage could explain the virus’ weird symptoms

An infection of the blood vessels would explain many of the weird tendencies of the novel coronavirus, like the high rates of blood clots. Endothelial cells help regulate clot formation by sending out proteins that turn the coagulation system on or off. The cells also help ensure that blood flows smoothly and doesn’t get caught on any rough edges on the blood vessel walls.

“The endothelial cell layer is in part responsible for [clot] regulation, it inhibits clot formation through a variety of ways,” says Sanjum Sethi, MD, MPH, an interventional cardiologist at Columbia University Irving Medical Center. “If that’s disrupted, you could see why that may potentially promote clot formation.”

Endothelial damage might account for the high rates of cardiovascular damage and seemingly spontaneous heart attacks in people with Covid-19, too. Damage to endothelial cells causes inflammation in the blood vessels, and that can cause any plaque that’s accumulated to rupture, causing a heart attack. This means anyone who has plaque in their blood vessels that might normally have remained stable or been controlled with medication is suddenly at a much higher risk for a heart attack.

“Inflammation and endothelial dysfunction promote plaque rupture,” Sethi says. “Endothelial dysfunction is linked towards worse heart outcomes, in particular myocardial infarction or heart attack.”

Blood vessel damage could also explain why people with pre-existing conditions like high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, and heart disease are at a higher risk for severe complications from a virus that’s supposed to just infect the lungs. All of those diseases cause endothelial cell dysfunction, and the additional damage and inflammation in the blood vessels caused by the infection could push them over the edge and cause serious problems.

The theory could even solve the mystery of why ventilation often isn’t enough to help many Covid-19 patients breathe better. Moving air into the lungs, which ventilators help with, is only one part of the equation. The exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the blood is just as important to provide the rest of the body with oxygen, and that process relies on functioning blood vessels in the lungs.

“If you have blood clots within the blood vessels that are required for complete oxygen exchange, even if you’re moving air in and out of the airways, [if] the circulation is blocked, the full benefits of mechanical ventilatory support are somewhat thwarted,” says Li.

A new paper published last week in the New England Journal of Medicine, on which Li is a co-author, found widespread evidence of blood clots and infection in the endothelial cells in the lungs of people who died from Covid-19. This was in stark contrast to people who died from H1N1, who had nine times fewer blood clots in the lungs. Even the structure of the blood vessels was different in the Covid-19 lungs, with many more new branches that likely formed after the original blood vessels were damaged.

“We saw blood clots everywhere,” Li says. “We were observing virus particles filling up the endothelial cell like filling up a gumball machine. The endothelial cell swells and the cell membrane starts to break down, and now you have a layer of injured endothelium.” Finally, infection of the blood vessels may be how the virus travels through the body and infects other organs — something that’s atypical of respiratory infections.

“Endothelial cells connect the entire circulation [system], 60,000 miles worth of blood vessels throughout our body,” says Li. “Is this one way that Covid-19 can impact the brain, the heart, the Covid toe? Does SARS-CoV-2 traffic itself through the endothelial cells or get into the bloodstream this way? We don’t know the answer to that.”

In another paper that looked at nearly 9,000 people with Covid-19, Mehra showed that the use of statins and ACE inhibitors were linked to higher rates of survival.

If Covid-19 is a vascular disease, the best antiviral therapy might not be antiviral therapy

An alternative theory is that the blood clotting and symptoms in other organs are caused by inflammation in the body due to an over-reactive immune response — the so-called cytokine storm. This inflammatory reaction can occur in other respiratory illnesses and severe cases of pneumonia, which is why the initial reports of blood clots, heart complications, and neurological symptoms didn’t sound the alarm bells. However, the magnitude of the problems seen with Covid-19 appear to go beyond the inflammation experienced in other respiratory infections.

“There is some increased propensity, we think, of clotting happening with these [other] viruses. I think inflammation in general promotes that,” Sethi says. “Is this over and above or unique for SARS-CoV-2, or is that just because [the infection] is just that much more severe? I think those are all really good questions that unfortunately we don’t have the answer to yet.”

Anecdotally, Sethi says the number of requests he received as the director of the pulmonary embolism response team, which deals with blood clots in the lungs, in April 2020 was two to three times the number in April 2019. The question he’s now trying to answer is whether that’s because there were simply more patients at the hospital during that month, the peak of the pandemic, or if Covid-19 patients really do have a higher risk for blood clots.

“I suspect from what we see and what our preliminary data show is that this virus has an additional risk factor for blood clots, but I can’t prove that yet,” Sethi says.

The good news is that if Covid-19 is a vascular disease, there are existing drugs that can help protect against endothelial cell damage. In another New England Journal of Medicine paper that looked at nearly 9,000 people with Covid-19, Mehra showed that the use of statins and ACE inhibitors were linked to higher rates of survival. Statins reduce the risk of heart attacks not only by lowering cholesterol or preventing plaque, they also stabilize existing plaque, meaning they’re less likely to rupture if someone is on the drugs.

“It turns out that both statins and ACE inhibitors are extremely protective on vascular dysfunction,” Mehra says. “Most of their benefit in the continuum of cardiovascular illness — be it high blood pressure, be it stroke, be it heart attack, be it arrhythmia, be it heart failure — in any situation the mechanism by which they protect the cardiovascular system starts with their ability to stabilize the endothelial cells.”

Mehra continues, “What we’re saying is that maybe the best antiviral therapy is not actually an antiviral therapy. The best therapy might actually be a drug that stabilizes the vascular endothelial. We’re building a drastically different concept.”


KRK
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
2020-06-09T14:27:30Z
They are always wrong, so I am not sure how relevant this is....but it would seem temperature and masks in crowds could go a long way in preventing the spread.

CNBC reported
Quote:

Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is ‘very rare,’ WHO says
PUBLISHED MON, JUN 8 20201:05 PM EDT UPDATED 43 MIN AGO
William Feuer @WILLFOIA Noah Higgins-Dunn @HIGGINSDUNN

KEY POINTS

  • Government responses should focus on detecting and isolating infected people with symptoms, the World Health Organization said.
  • Preliminary evidence from the earliest outbreaks indicated the virus could spread even if people didn’t have symptoms.
  • But the WHO says that while asymptomatic spread can occur, it is “very rare.”
WHO: Coronavirus patients who don’t show symptoms aren’t driving the spread of the virus

Coronavirus patients without symptoms aren’t driving the spread of the virus, World Health Organization officials said Monday, casting doubt on concerns by some researchers that the disease could be difficult to contain due to asymptomatic infections.

Some people, particularly young and otherwise healthy individuals, who are infected by the coronavirus never develop symptoms or only develop mild symptoms. Others might not develop symptoms until days after they were actually infected.

Preliminary evidence from the earliest outbreaks indicated that the virus could spread from person-to-person contact, even if the carrier didn’t have symptoms. But WHO officials now say that while asymptomatic spread can occur, it is not the main way it’s being transmitted.

“From the data we have, it still seems to be rare that an asymptomatic person actually transmits onward to a secondary individual,” Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, head of WHO’s emerging diseases and zoonosis unit, said at a news briefing from the United Nations agency’s Geneva headquarters. “It’s very rare.”

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