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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#16 Posted : Friday, January 23, 2009 12:24:44 PM(UTC)
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Still seems everyone thinks that Dline in the 3-4 has to be a bunch of hogs. When the truth is, they don't. Many running the 3-4 are smaller than the theoretical 340 lb beast at NT with big DE's. Players ability is more important than size. lining up 3-300 lbers that are strong and quick pose more of a difficulty for the O than a 340 that is just there to be a stump.
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Offline Pack93z  
#17 Posted : Friday, January 23, 2009 1:12:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Still seems everyone thinks that Dline in the 3-4 has to be a bunch of hogs. When the truth is, they don't. Many running the 3-4 are smaller than the theoretical 340 lb beast at NT with big DE's. Players ability is more important than size. lining up 3-300 lbers that are strong and quick pose more of a difficulty for the O than a 340 that is just there to be a stump.


Agreed, but when I say the man in the middle has to be a beast, I mean that he has got to have the proper attitude and demeanor to play the position.. I remember when Jurko used to piss and moan about getting chipped and chopped in two directions in the two gap 4-3 we played in the early 90's.. that is nothing compared to lining up straight over the center and having the hits come from either side.. takes a "beast" of a man to anchor the nose.

Need to have a certain amount of pissedoffness to play it.. and take pride in just doing your job. The media and stats aren't going to tell the real story.. team first attitude.

And if the guy isn't going to be a space eater and chew up blocks, you better have a couple of backers in the middle that can shed blocks and plug.. we seem to be short in that area currently. I think Hawk is still waiting for the back to get to him, that is when he isn't blocked. :lol:
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#18 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 12:49:22 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Still seems everyone thinks that Dline in the 3-4 has to be a bunch of hogs. When the truth is, they don't. Many running the 3-4 are smaller than the theoretical 340 lb beast at NT with big DE's. Players ability is more important than size. lining up 3-300 lbers that are strong and quick pose more of a difficulty for the O than a 340 that is just there to be a stump.


Agreed, but when I say the man in the middle has to be a beast, I mean that he has got to have the proper attitude and demeanor to play the position.. I remember when Jurko used to piss and moan about getting chipped and chopped in two directions in the two gap 4-3 we played in the early 90's.. that is nothing compared to lining up straight over the center and having the hits come from either side.. takes a "beast" of a man to anchor the nose.

Need to have a certain amount of pissedoffness to play it.. and take pride in just doing your job. The media and stats aren't going to tell the real story.. team first attitude.

And if the guy isn't going to be a space eater and chew up blocks, you better have a couple of backers in the middle that can shed blocks and plug.. we seem to be short in that area currently. I think Hawk is still waiting for the back to get to him, that is when he isn't blocked. :lol:


Also remember that Jurko was the NT before switching to the 4-3 also. That is why I think Kampman could be a force at DE in the 3-4 because of his attitude and work ethic. Jenkins will be a great DE also, and getting Harrell to be healthy for a year, could be the beast at NT.

Also if you watch NT does not always line up over center. Ngata was lining up at DE for Baltimore a lot. Pulling the double to 1 side making the opposite side have to deal with two DEs and the blitzing LBer.
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Offline all_about_da_packers  
#19 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:11:50 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Harrell is a huge dude. He could be the NT if he stays healthy.


There was talk about him being a 34 DE in his draft year, so maybe we shed him back down to around 300 pounds and use him there. Maybe carrying less weight will help him out health wise too.



Harrell, although listed at 320, might be closer to 310.

His "normal" playing weight in college was 310, and in his rookie year the Packers had him bulk upto 320.

At the end of the year, Harrell said he wasn't comfortable at 320, that he felt sluggish and uncomfortable at that playing weight.

Robert Nunn, then DT coach, also said at the end of Harrell's rookie year that the Packers were going to seriously consider having Harrell slim back down to 310, where he feels much more mobile and comfortable.

I'm not sure if that actually happened, it was reported Harrell was out of shape in the off-season, but I think he's much more closer to a 3-4 DE than a 3-4 NT.
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Offline all_about_da_packers  
#20 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 5:24:46 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
[size=24][/size]Do we have that guy? Pickett is the obvious choice, but what about Colin Cole? Justin Harrell? Johnny Jolly? Physically, we have several players who could fit the bill:

Code:

Pickett 6-2 330
Cole 6-1 330
Jolly 6-3 320
Harrell 6-4 320
Bledsoe (PS) 6-3 329



I've read from a couple of sources now that Pickett, while listed at 320, is actually in the 340-350 range.

I'm going to come out and say now that our two main NTs for next year are already on the roster. Pickett is one, and I believe Jolly is the other. I believe he has the body type of NT (clearly) but more importantly listing Jolly at 320 is being generous, too, IMO.

We'll need another NT body type, but I think can't see the Packers keeping more than 3 NTs next year. Two of which, IMO, are already on the roster. I'd lean towards the 3rd NT being a vet FA pick-up to help ease the transition. If we draft Raji, I think he'll be more of a 3-4 DE, at least in the early stages.
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Offline beast  
#21 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 5:28:14 AM(UTC)
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First of all we would need to figure out what kind of 3-4 the Packers plan on running. Yes there are different type just like there are different type of 4-3.

First off Cole isn't signed with the Packers and turned down there offer. Second he would complete suck at NT. Yes he's body is huge, but a huge body doesn't mean your any good at football. Cole suck at two gap which is what the NT usually (not always depending on the system) does. Cole would more likely be a DE. Because all he's good at is bull rushing one on one.

The two players currently on the Roster that can play good at two gap NT are Pickett and Harrell (if healthy). Maybe somebody else grow into it or one of the younger guys I haven't seen much of could also.....

Jolly, Jenkins, Harrell, Cole (if he resigns) and Montgomery (if he resigns) could play DE in this system. (Kampman could too but sounds like they are making him an OLB)

Also I would be looking at those DTs from Boston College in the draft and a few others because I think the Packers need more DL.
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Offline all_about_da_packers  
#22 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 6:13:10 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
The two players currently on the Roster that can play good at two gap NT are Pickett and Harrell (if healthy). Maybe somebody else grow into it or one of the younger guys I haven't seen much of could also....


Harrell is interesting because he is very strong, and has the ability to become a NT if he fills out even more.

My only problem with Harrell though is that he will struggle with added bulk, because I feel he needs to be a bit more bulky to fit as a NT. Harrell has said in the past he'd prefer to play around 310, which is what he played at in college. That makes him a difficult fit for a NT.

I still think Jolly is our second NT, more so than a DE. He's listed at 320, but I'd guess he's at least 330. He's got a thick body, very instinctive, and frankly he plays with an attitude. I think he's got the tools to be a very effective NT.
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Offline dfosterf  
#23 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 12:35:35 PM(UTC)
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Have you fellas ever heard of the planet theory? There is a strong argument made that this theory is what brought Justin Harrell to the Packers at 16. There are several articles available to explain. In a google box, type in "planet theory nfl" (without the quotes) I found the athelon article particularly enlightening... So many said (and say) we "reached" for Justin, and "blame" Ted Thompson for doing so. I recommend all take a moment to do this little google exercise, especially as we debate the merits of B.J. Raji, for example.
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Offline Pack93z  
#24 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 1:22:59 PM(UTC)
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That is why Pieria Jerry will begin to rocket up boards.. with the show he is putting on at the Senior Bowl.. he will climb the draft boards.

Raji as well.. both have shown that they can penetrate, take on the doubles and both look pretty unstoppable against any of the oline talent at the senior bowl.

Read complete article...

Quote:
The famous Planet Theory originated by the late great N.Y. Giants executive George Young and popularized by Parcells states that there are a finite number of athletic 300-pounders on Earth. And when a team has a chance to draft one, it should.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Megatron  
#25 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 1:42:57 PM(UTC)
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i've been reading good things about Pieria Jerry but my biggest knock against him is his age. He will be 25 by the time next season comes around. At that age he got to be ready to play in the NFL straight away otherwise we would have to wait a year or two for him to finally come good. By then he could be 27!! investing a high draft pick for him is a risk as it means if he does come good, you could only get maybe 3 or 4 years out of him before he his production starts declining.

A player in the same position is Ziggy Hood is 22 and has apparently impressed in the senior bowl with his vast array of pass rush moves. A high draft pick for him is fine because you could have him producing at a high level for a longer period of time even with the inital adjustment period to the NFL before he starts producing consistently.
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Offline Pack93z  
#26 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 2:18:29 PM(UTC)
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Megatron... +1.

Excellent point.. if the talent projection is high enough it still makes sense, but it factors in as well.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline dfosterf  
#27 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 3:44:43 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
The two players currently on the Roster that can play good at two gap NT are Pickett and Harrell (if healthy). Maybe somebody else grow into it or one of the younger guys I haven't seen much of could also....


Harrell is interesting because he is very strong, and has the ability to become a NT if he fills out even more.

My only problem with Harrell though is that he will struggle with added bulk, because I feel he needs to be a bit more bulky to fit as a NT. Harrell has said in the past he'd prefer to play around 310, which is what he played at in college. That makes him a difficult fit for a NT.

I still think Jolly is our second NT, more so than a DE. He's listed at 320, but I'd guess he's at least 330. He's got a thick body, very instinctive, and frankly he plays with an attitude. I think he's got the tools to be a very effective NT.


If Jolly isn't in prison.

As to Justin, I have read your posts in this thread, and think you have it just about pegged. Harrell WAS pegged as a "two gap" DT out of college, but everything I have read would indicate that he is a natural DE in the 3-4, at a playing weight of around 300-310. The one thing that is missing on the "great search" is this... we last left off as regards Justin with him not being able to play vs. Chicago, and probably requiring more surgery. Just like last year, he then fell off the radar, except for the bitching about him as a bust.

I want to know where he is, what he is doing, has he been told what he is projected to be doing in this scheme, is he getting surgery or not, is he eating his mom's cooking again down in Tennessee, is he in Green Bay... I want this fat f#$k WATCHED. He has until the end of training camp, from my view.
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Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#28 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:15:19 PM(UTC)
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I don't want to see Harrell put on injured reserve again. If he's not fit to make the roster from Game 1 of next season, I want him CUT.
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Offline go.pack.go.  
#29 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 5:18:59 PM(UTC)
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May be off topic, but what exactly did Jolly do to get him in legal trouble? Could he really go to prison, or would he get suspended by the NFL?
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Offline dfosterf  
#30 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 5:32:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
May be off topic, but what exactly did Jolly do to get him in legal trouble? Could he really go to prison, or would he get suspended by the NFL?


Link:

Jolly decides to open a cough syrup factory
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