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Offline DakotaT  
#46 Posted : Sunday, March 9, 2014 12:24:58 PM(UTC)
DakotaT

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Not Texas, only a small percentage of people in those capitalistic societies are thriving, and you're not one of those in ours. Just another of the unpaid soldiers, who vote for the criminals. And you also need to quit comparing everything to Walmart for markup. I'm talking about the contractor/retailers in this country making money hand over fist and then balk at paying $20 an hour with limited benefits. 40% markup for them is standard.

The check and balance on capitalism is taxes. Unfortunately for all of us little people, the Capitalists own the government and keep giving legalized tax evasion, which is why people are pissed off at the redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the top 5%. It really is that simple - but buffoons keep muddling up the works because you listen to the right wing programming.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#47 Posted : Sunday, March 9, 2014 8:15:53 PM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker

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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Not Texas, only a small percentage of people in those capitalistic societies are thriving, and you're not one of those in ours. Just another of the unpaid soldiers, who vote for the criminals. And you also need to quit comparing everything to Walmart for markup. I'm talking about the contractor/retailers in this country making money hand over fist and then balk at paying $20 an hour with limited benefits. 40% markup for them is standard.

The check and balance on capitalism is taxes. Unfortunately for all of us little people, the Capitalists own the government and keep giving legalized tax evasion, which is why people are pissed off at the redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the top 5%. It really is that simple - but buffoons keep muddling up the works because you listen to the right wing programming.


Gosh, Dakota, you're off your game today. I read this a few hours ago, but I was a little busy then. Besides, it didn't hurt to let your weak effort sit there unchallenged for a while.

As for those other countries operating on capitalist principals, how many of those countries have you been to in the last decade or two? Which of them did not seem to be thriving - and I mean down to the masses? My count is 5, not counting Canada and Mexico, and they all seemed to be doing fine. For that matter, thanks for your concern hahahaha, but I'm doing fine too - just like virtually everybody else in this country.

You were not real clear about that 40% mark up thing. Are you saying Walmart DOESN'T make that much - which would certainly be correct? Are you saying that more small-time "contractors and retailers" have a bigger profit margin than Walmart? That doesn't sound correct, but who knows. Anyway, the relevant point - about which you show GROSS lack of understanding - is that market forces control what a business can and can't do in terms of profit margin, prices, wages paid, etc. , NOT government intrusion either by taxes, as you fantasize or by regulation. Tax and regulation just tend to screw things up. How in the hell do you expect any company, big or small, to thrive or even survive if they are charging too much for their goods or services? And how do you expect a company to get decent employees if they don't pay the wage the market requires?

They do charge what they need to charge and pay whatever wages they need to charge. As a result, we all have the greatest life of any people in the history of the world. Would you actually say we don't? And the rest of the world, while still way behind us in America - as they should be, are making progress too - those with the sense to do things our way, anyway. It's all good - for everybody except the loons who hate America's success - you know, Dakota, people like you see when you look in the mirror.
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Offline DakotaT  
#48 Posted : Monday, March 10, 2014 3:19:56 AM(UTC)
DakotaT

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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Gosh, Dakota, you're off your game today. I read this a few hours ago, but I was a little busy then. Besides, it didn't hurt to let your weak effort sit there unchallenged for a while.

As for those other countries operating on capitalist principals, how many of those countries have you been to in the last decade or two? Which of them did not seem to be thriving - and I mean down to the masses? My count is 5, not counting Canada and Mexico, and they all seemed to be doing fine. For that matter, thanks for your concern hahahaha, but I'm doing fine too - just like virtually everybody else in this country.

You were not real clear about that 40% mark up thing. Are you saying Walmart DOESN'T make that much - which would certainly be correct? Are you saying that more small-time "contractors and retailers" have a bigger profit margin than Walmart? That doesn't sound correct, but who knows. Anyway, the relevant point - about which you show GROSS lack of understanding - is that market forces control what a business can and can't do in terms of profit margin, prices, wages paid, etc. , NOT government intrusion either by taxes, as you fantasize or by regulation. Tax and regulation just tend to screw things up. How in the hell do you expect any company, big or small, to thrive or even survive if they are charging too much for their goods or services? And how do you expect a company to get decent employees if they don't pay the wage the market requires?

They do charge what they need to charge and pay whatever wages they need to charge. As a result, we all have the greatest life of any people in the history of the world. Would you actually say we don't? And the rest of the world, while still way behind us in America - as they should be, are making progress too - those with the sense to do things our way, anyway. It's all good - for everybody except the loons who hate America's success - you know, Dakota, people like you see when you look in the mirror.


It's amazing to me the mediocrity you accept as "everyone is doing great". I guess the only benchmark you use is that they have crappy food to eat. You and I live in different universes. I'm going to start being like you and not give a f*ck about anybody and just live in my own little bubble. What I do know is that those superheroes of yours, the capitalists, are going to have a lot of explaining to do when they meet the Almighty. And for your information, I live in a booming economy where 40% profit is pretty normal. People have a lot of money around these parts and enjoy spending it. We here in North Dakota actually live the kind of shit you're always imaging in that head of yours.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#49 Posted : Monday, March 10, 2014 9:37:21 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
It's amazing to me the mediocrity you accept as "everyone is doing great". I guess the only benchmark you use is that they have crappy food to eat. You and I live in different universes. I'm going to start being like you and not give a f*ck about anybody and just live in my own little bubble. What I do know is that those superheroes of yours, the capitalists, are going to have a lot of explaining to do when they meet the Almighty. And for your information, I live in a booming economy where 40% profit is pretty normal. People have a lot of money around these parts and enjoy spending it. We here in North Dakota actually live the kind of shit you're always imaging in that head of yours.


Since you apparently haven't been anywhere in the world, it's hard to even illustrate the point, but suffice it to say, several foreign countries I went to 30 or 40 years ago have made great strides toward being Americanized, economically speaking, and the standard of living reflects that.

As for your paradise up there in North Dakota, do you know what you just illustrated? TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS hahahaha. Money can be injected various ways, and in the case of your area, the Almighty blessed you with oil and the technology to frac it. All those small businesses you are talking about with their magnificent 40% mark up could only do that if there were fairly prosperous people to buy what they are selling. Obviously, not all of those people are oil barons. In most cases, the oil money has "trickled down" to them. THAT is the beauty of capitalism, and I think God is just fine with the concept - some adventurous people take a risk of their money or come up with some kind of innovation or maybe just get lucky, and they are rewarded with higher than normal income - unless their gamble doesn't pay off. Those of us just cruising through life basically get what trickles down, and in America/in a capitalist system in general, that's pretty damn good. You can call it mediocrity all you like, but it is mediocrity at a higher level than any other place and time in the history of the world. If that ain't enough, a person can always take a few risks and become one of those capitalists you hate so much. If those econmic "winners" get too selfish, yeah, God will probably slap them down, either in the short term or on Judgment Day, but that's their own business, and basically a non-economic topic. Myself, I just don't see very many successful people who resemble the villains in the Good Samaritan story.

The point is, in this system, the opportunity is there to rise up in class, and the "mediocrity" level is so high that people can enjoy life that way if they choose.
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If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline DakotaT  
#50 Posted : Monday, March 10, 2014 11:50:24 AM(UTC)
DakotaT

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What you don't understand is the other industry is corporate farming, or more or less socialism. See, North Dakota takes in all this Federal Pork called the Farm Bill and subsidies to farmers that do not need them. We also have 2 Air Force bases when 1 would be sufficient to babysit all the nucs we have in the ground here. Lots of Federal dollars spent in North Dakota. In fact, we are net welfare state.

Trickle down economics is about unethical tax reductions for the wealthy. The part of that equation that never worked was the wealthy sharing of the tax breaks by reinvesting it in America. Instead they send the money to banks in the Caman Islands and Switzerland. At least with welfare to poor people, the money gets redistributed in American communities.

Let's just agree that the hogs at the top are disgusting, despicable human beings who only care about money. And the rest of us just get to keep the table scraps. Some of us disagree with these sorts of things, and other like you accept it. But Capitalism is hardly the utopia you make it out to be because of the imperfect human beings that leach of it.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#51 Posted : Monday, March 10, 2014 6:38:23 PM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker

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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
What you don't understand is the other industry is corporate farming, or more or less socialism. See, North Dakota takes in all this Federal Pork called the Farm Bill and subsidies to farmers that do not need them. We also have 2 Air Force bases when 1 would be sufficient to babysit all the nucs we have in the ground here. Lots of Federal dollars spent in North Dakota. In fact, we are net welfare state.

Trickle down economics is about unethical tax reductions for the wealthy. The part of that equation that never worked was the wealthy sharing of the tax breaks by reinvesting it in America. Instead they send the money to banks in the Caman Islands and Switzerland. At least with welfare to poor people, the money gets redistributed in American communities.

Let's just agree that the hogs at the top are disgusting, despicable human beings who only care about money. And the rest of us just get to keep the table scraps. Some of us disagree with these sorts of things, and other like you accept it. But Capitalism is hardly the utopia you make it out to be because of the imperfect human beings that leach of it.


Very Interesting about North Dakota ....... The first thought that comes to mind is that the farming - corporate, I'm not sure, has been there for generations. The Air Force Bases also probably go back to at least the mid-1900s. The state didn't start to boom economically until the oil thing. I would assume that the corporate farming concept, in comparison to Wisconsin, for example, is due to the land being a lot less productive - less suited to smaller more intensively used family farms - dairy, cash crops, etc. and more for suited for more extensive stuff like cattle ranching. At any rate, you of all people should know, there is a HUGE difference between that and socialism - namely the profit motive, which makes all things beneficial. If part of that profit comes from government subsidies, fine, money is money. It ALL multiplies in its benefits - see the next paragraph.

You also display a total failure to understand trickle down. It works because of self-interest - another concept you always disparage. If you had a million dollars (maybe you do hahaha), would you stash it like you described at dirt cheap interest? Or would you invest it in some kind of a productive money-making business? Obviously, people with good sense do the latter. And when they expand those businesses, good-paying jobs are created. Then, those employees have plenty of money to pay for that fantastic 40% mark up you talk about. I assume you see plenty of that up there. THAT is the essence of trickle down - good normal people doing what's good for themselves, resulting in benefit for all.

You see despicable capitalist hogs - "vulture capitalists" and I see rotten left wing social planning bureaucrats. I'll agree about the badness of your bogeymen if you agree about mine hahaha. Both are stumbling blocks to that "utopia" you mentioned.

It's all good in America, though - plenty for all - just so long as our military dominance in the world continues.

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If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline Wade  
#52 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2014 9:46:11 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post

You see despicable capitalist hogs - "vulture capitalists" and I see rotten left wing social planning bureaucrats. I'll agree about the badness of your bogeymen if you agree about mine hahaha. Both are stumbling blocks to that "utopia" you mentioned.


Problem is, those left wing social planning bureaucrats and those vulture capitalists are incestuous lovers. Rhetoric notwithstanding, it isn't the vulture capitalists who pay for the social planning and regulatory control/punishment that anti-vultures like Dakota wants. The vultures can afford lots of $1000/hour lawyers and invariably manipulate the rules in ways that increase, not decrease, their competitive edge over non-vultures.

That's why, as much as I hate "corporate capitalism" (probably at least as much as Dakota hates it), I remain an anarchist. Because I have zero confidence in the government, in any incarnation, liberal or conservative, Demopublican or Republocrat, to do anything but make that corporate capitalism worse.

Case in point: Eisenhower used the term "military-industrial complex" in the 1950s. Since that time we have had Democrat, Democrat, Republican, Republican, Democrat, Republican, Republican, Democrat, Republican, Democrat. And does anyone truly believe the problems Eisenhower saw have gotten better in any way shape or form? "Big business" power has increased from 1960 to 1970 to 1980 to 1990 to 2000 to 2010, despite hundreds of thousands of pages of government regulation in the name of consumer protection, product safety, fair employment, OSHA, environmental safety, income inequality, AFDC, health care, insurance, banking, blah blah blah blah. So has income inequality. Inner cities have continued to decline. Etc etc etc.

Government doesn't counter the problems of big business power. It exacerbates them and makes them harder to deal with. The real power of the "capitalist class" doesn't come because they have accumulated wealth; the real power comes because it is the nature of states to give power according to relative wealth. That is true of authoritarian states, of monarchical states, and it is true -- in spades -- of the states shaped by "representative" democracy. Because the franchise notwithstanding, it is wealth that shapes access and influence over those who would administer the rest of us.

90% of "Deregulation" as it has been practiced in *ANY* administration since Eisenhower ranted has been little more than rhetorical non-speak, just new varieties of re-regulation that enable some vultures to do their thing better while claiming to do the opposite.

If you want to reduce the power and control of the vultures, really reduce it, the solution isn't de-regulation it is anti-regulation. Anything else just increases the vulture's lifespan and creates full-employment for the vultures' hired guns of lawyers, accountants, lobbyists, bureaucrats, and politicians.

Anarchism doesn't promise fairness and it doesn't promise inequality. It merely limits power of all, and in so constrains the ability of wealth to manipulate the rules of the game for its benefit without actually offering value in return. Madison's Constitution had possibilities for providing similar constraints under republicanism, but with Wickard v Filburn and the decades of Supreme Court decisions emasculating the 9th and 10th amendments and the post WWII rise in government-of-entitlement-and-empowerment, Madison's Constitution is a dead experiment.

Except for the names of the players, and a few technological whizbangs, we've let ourselves be returned to the world of 1763-1789. Madison, Washington and Jefferson,Montesquieu and Tocqueville, Burke and Paine, they offered us a route to replace the worlds of power, of mercantilism and feudalism and empire, with something better, something built on foundations of mutually advantageous exchange and individual self-interest and forbearance.

But we let the pursuers of power con us with their promises of coercion of those who don't want to do everything we want them do for us, con us with their reduction of everything to some "them" who are "making" us do something we don't want to do.

The only question remaining is who gets to be part of the Committee on Public Safety and who ends up having a choice between having one's head smashed in a food riot or carried away in a post-guillotine basket.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline DakotaT  
#53 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2014 6:17:32 PM(UTC)
DakotaT

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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post


You see despicable capitalist hogs - "vulture capitalists" and I see rotten left wing social planning bureaucrats. I'll agree about the badness of your bogeymen if you agree about mine hahaha. Both are stumbling blocks to that "utopia" you mentioned.

It's all good in America, though - plenty for all - just so long as our military dominance in the world continues.



The mistake you make when arguing with me is that you assume I believe in the Democrats - they are as full of shit as the Republicans. My problem with Republicans is their hypocrisy, when the try to attach themselves to God. They are not people of God. People of God help the poor not try to stomp them into the ground.

I like Wade's anarchy thing - but let's get real - that'll never fly, and nothing is ever going to ever really change, so you kind of get what you want with the status quo.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#54 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2014 9:30:19 PM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker

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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Problem is, those left wing social planning bureaucrats and those vulture capitalists are incestuous lovers. Rhetoric notwithstanding, it isn't the vulture capitalists who pay for the social planning and regulatory control/punishment that anti-vultures like Dakota wants. The vultures can afford lots of $1000/hour lawyers and invariably manipulate the rules in ways that increase, not decrease, their competitive edge over non-vultures.

That's why, as much as I hate "corporate capitalism" (probably at least as much as Dakota hates it), I remain an anarchist. Because I have zero confidence in the government, in any incarnation, liberal or conservative, Demopublican or Republocrat, to do anything but make that corporate capitalism worse.

Case in point: Eisenhower used the term "military-industrial complex" in the 1950s. Since that time we have had Democrat, Democrat, Republican, Republican, Democrat, Republican, Republican, Democrat, Republican, Democrat. And does anyone truly believe the problems Eisenhower saw have gotten better in any way shape or form? "Big business" power has increased from 1960 to 1970 to 1980 to 1990 to 2000 to 2010, despite hundreds of thousands of pages of government regulation in the name of consumer protection, product safety, fair employment, OSHA, environmental safety, income inequality, AFDC, health care, insurance, banking, blah blah blah blah. So has income inequality. Inner cities have continued to decline. Etc etc etc.

Government doesn't counter the problems of big business power. It exacerbates them and makes them harder to deal with. The real power of the "capitalist class" doesn't come because they have accumulated wealth; the real power comes because it is the nature of states to give power according to relative wealth. That is true of authoritarian states, of monarchical states, and it is true -- in spades -- of the states shaped by "representative" democracy. Because the franchise notwithstanding, it is wealth that shapes access and influence over those who would administer the rest of us.

90% of "Deregulation" as it has been practiced in *ANY* administration since Eisenhower ranted has been little more than rhetorical non-speak, just new varieties of re-regulation that enable some vultures to do their thing better while claiming to do the opposite.

If you want to reduce the power and control of the vultures, really reduce it, the solution isn't de-regulation it is anti-regulation. Anything else just increases the vulture's lifespan and creates full-employment for the vultures' hired guns of lawyers, accountants, lobbyists, bureaucrats, and politicians.

Anarchism doesn't promise fairness and it doesn't promise inequality. It merely limits power of all, and in so constrains the ability of wealth to manipulate the rules of the game for its benefit without actually offering value in return. Madison's Constitution had possibilities for providing similar constraints under republicanism, but with Wickard v Filburn and the decades of Supreme Court decisions emasculating the 9th and 10th amendments and the post WWII rise in government-of-entitlement-and-empowerment, Madison's Constitution is a dead experiment.

Except for the names of the players, and a few technological whizbangs, we've let ourselves be returned to the world of 1763-1789. Madison, Washington and Jefferson,Montesquieu and Tocqueville, Burke and Paine, they offered us a route to replace the worlds of power, of mercantilism and feudalism and empire, with something better, something built on foundations of mutually advantageous exchange and individual self-interest and forbearance.

But we let the pursuers of power con us with their promises of coercion of those who don't want to do everything we want them do for us, con us with their reduction of everything to some "them" who are "making" us do something we don't want to do.

The only question remaining is who gets to be part of the Committee on Public Safety and who ends up having a choice between having one's head smashed in a food riot or carried away in a post-guillotine basket.



Gosh, Wade, unlike your customary surgical strikes, you really went at it with a shotgun this time. I was a kid in the Eisenhower years, and as time went by, the anti-war assholes of the sixties, the creeping government intrusion of the 70s, etc., I appreciated more and more that "Leave It To Beaver" era - no drama, no great attempt to screw things up, etc. Possibly the worst gripe I ever had about Ike was that seemingly completely out of character comment of his about the "military industrial complex". I always figured he either was having a bad day or else he got away from whatever the pre-Obama equivalent of a teleprompter was.

As I'm sure you know and embrace, Wade, anarchism as you portray it is tantamount to boat-rocking. I don't care whether it is the God damned leftist changemongers or the stupid Ron/Rand Paul non-interventionists, I, and I hope the great great majority of good normal Americans consider the precious status quo to be the hallmark of our society. Your careless disregard for that status quo with the anarchism you advocate would be dangerous to the fantastically wonderful life we all have - if not for one thing: see Dakota's last couple of lines which are eminently true, and which basically save the day.

Long ago, in the early seventies, I went to a meeting of the John Birch Society - just one. They described this paranoid conspiratorial concept which I considered unbelievable at the time: a group of INSIDERS - they referred to them as ILLUMINATI - that basically controlled everything behind the scenes - America, Europe, the Soviet Union, etc. I especially didn't believe (and was treated like a heretic for saying so) that Soviet Communism was under the thumb of these INSIDERS. You could easily interpret history, though, as the Commies going rogue and getting slapped down. Anyway, the point is, I have really come to believe in the past decade or so that those INSIDERS do exist, and that rather than being a force strangling America, they are the primary force keeping America on top. I mean, think about it, where are the Zionist bankers/the behind the scenes power brokers gonna feel the most secure? With a Communist government? Under oppressive Muslim Sharia Law? In weak, unstable, and cowardly by nature Europe? Or in a happy healthy strong America? THEY need US as much or more than WE need THEM, and therein lies the best thing we have going - until the Second Coming and Christ's Millenial Kingdom takes over.

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If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline Wade  
#55 Posted : Wednesday, March 12, 2014 3:18:08 PM(UTC)
Wade

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Funny thing about revolutions is that one can rarely predict the outcome.

Most modern revolutions have tended toward emulation of the French of 1789 and/or the Russians of 1917.

Once, however, a group of radical English managed to avoid both paths, and managed to do so for over 200 years.

I used to believe that anarchic society would be a natural evolution for the descendants of those radical English. The approach of those radical English was, after all an approach that valued representative government, innovation, and steady growth of literacy and human capital while it also structured matters to limit the temptations of empire and the delusions of the power-seeking. Their descendants, having benefited from generations of increasing affluence, knowledge, and technological possibilities, would see anarchism not as a route to Hobbesian chaos but as a step that allowed the next order-of-magnitude improvement in the human condition. That they would see it not as a pipe dream of crazy idealists like me, but as a natural progression along the path that 1776 began building.

I still believe in anarchism. I no longer have any confidence in those descendants, i.e., us, to see the logic and, yes, practicality, of evolution beyond state-defined society. My lifetime has been one extended regression toward dependence on today's equivalent of the emperor (popularly-elected legislators and father figure-executives), his mandarins (bureaucrats), and his feudal lords (corporate CEOs, "thought leaders," and Tex's Illuminati), one repudiation after another of the vision of the American experiment, and generations of massive and systematic failure by educators in matters of basic economics and civic responsibility.

America might see its way to anarchism, but if it does, it isn't going to come save as the end of a traumatic period of revolution akin to that of 1789-1848 or 1917-1945, a revolution that will make the civil and imperial wars of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries look like the argument of a 5-year-old's birthday party by comparison.

However, even though I see revolution as the only possible way people located in the geographic region currently called the US of A might luck out and move to an anarchic society, I am not advocating revolution. I think the chances of revolution actually leading us forward in social evolution are somewhere between slim and none. While our technological possibilities far exceed those available to those free-born Englishmen of 1776, our ignorance exceeds theirs far more.

The Vikings winning a Super Bowl is probably more likely.

Rome is going to fall. Only question is which of our lifetimes it happens in.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#56 Posted : Wednesday, March 12, 2014 5:17:27 PM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker

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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Funny thing about revolutions is that one can rarely predict the outcome.

Most modern revolutions have tended toward emulation of the French of 1789 and/or the Russians of 1917.

Once, however, a group of radical English managed to avoid both paths, and managed to do so for over 200 years.

I used to believe that anarchic society would be a natural evolution for the descendants of those radical English. The approach of those radical English was, after all an approach that valued representative government, innovation, and steady growth of literacy and human capital while it also structured matters to limit the temptations of empire and the delusions of the power-seeking. Their descendants, having benefited from generations of increasing affluence, knowledge, and technological possibilities, would see anarchism not as a route to Hobbesian chaos but as a step that allowed the next order-of-magnitude improvement in the human condition. That they would see it not as a pipe dream of crazy idealists like me, but as a natural progression along the path that 1776 began building.

I still believe in anarchism. I no longer have any confidence in those descendants, i.e., us, to see the logic and, yes, practicality, of evolution beyond state-defined society. My lifetime has been one extended regression toward dependence on today's equivalent of the emperor (popularly-elected legislators and father figure-executives), his mandarins (bureaucrats), and his feudal lords (corporate CEOs, "thought leaders," and Tex's Illuminati), one repudiation after another of the vision of the American experiment, and generations of massive and systematic failure by educators in matters of basic economics and civic responsibility.

America might see its way to anarchism, but if it does, it isn't going to come save as the end of a traumatic period of revolution akin to that of 1789-1848 or 1917-1945, a revolution that will make the civil and imperial wars of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries look like the argument of a 5-year-old's birthday party by comparison.

However, even though I see revolution as the only possible way people located in the geographic region currently called the US of A might luck out and move to an anarchic society, I am not advocating revolution. I think the chances of revolution actually leading us forward in social evolution are somewhere between slim and none. While our technological possibilities far exceed those available to those free-born Englishmen of 1776, our ignorance exceeds theirs far more.

The Vikings winning a Super Bowl is probably more likely.

Rome is going to fall. Only question is which of our lifetimes it happens in.



Your first and second lines are eminently true. Even the Russian Revolution started out aimed at democracy - Kerensky or whatever his name was. Hell yeah, the results are unpredictable, and even if in the end, things shape up, there is that near sure thing of thoroughly miserable times in the transition. Do you REALLY advocate that? I wouldn't wish that scenario on some moderately decent country where things are a helluva a lot worse than here, but could get quantumly worse yet. As for America, we have the GREATEST life, the GREATEST situation in the history of the world - right down to the lowest level - what Dakota so weirdly calls poor. Would you dispute that? You would actually RISK that by advocating revolution?

And if you actually got that anarchy you talk about, what then? Describe it, please - how it would be so good.

As for the succession of empires - the "Rome will fall" thing, I liken that to the laws of physics: the principals were a seemingly dead sure thing - right up until the splitting of the atom. Nuclear technology similarly belied the concept of succession of empires. Our technology - specifically our nukes - will keep us on top until such time as Christ returns and the reins are handed over to Him. Nukes, as well as our unprecedented benevolence among dominant nations in history.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline Wade  
#57 Posted : Wednesday, March 12, 2014 6:53:37 PM(UTC)
Wade

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1. No, I am not advocating revolution. I thought I said this in my previous post, but it probably got buried in the rest of the verbiage.

But, no, I do not advocate revolution. Not even on the days I am simultaneously most pissed off at my employer, the POTUS, the SCOTUS, the COTHUS, politicians and liberals everywhere, AND Ted Thompson.

I doubt I would even if I believed my anarchist vision would prevail (which I don't) and even if I didn't believe I would end up being among the first lined up against the wall (which I do).

2. As for why I think anarchism would be an improvement over current America, let me just a few of my reasons without explanation for now and wait until I'm a little less tired. For the third day in a row I find myself not yet home as 9 pm. approach despite having abandoned Thuji before 7:30 am. But here's some reasons:
1. No individual can kill as many people or cause as much damage as any state in human history (including our own) has.
2. No company, no matter how multinational and humongous, can either.
3. States concentrate power, that's what they do. Imperial states concentrate it more.
4. Power corrupts, and more power corrupts more.
5. Human progress has happened because of the actions of free individuals acting in their self-interest, not because the right group happened to have power over others.
6. Free societies innovate more. More free societies innovate even more.
7. The genius of the American Experiment was in somehow finding a way to focus on limiting all types of power, not in ensuring that more people had power.
8. Empowerment inevitably leads back to #4.
9. Anarchism means freer markets. Freer markets mean more sustained economic growth. History shows that sustained economic growth has is accompanying by sustained improvements in health, nutrition, life expectancy, and other "non-material" measures of human improvement.
10. Free markets don't work by entitlement, they work because people are finding new ways to mutually benefit.

That's enough for now.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#58 Posted : Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:59:24 PM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker

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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
1. No, I am not advocating revolution. I thought I said this in my previous post, but it probably got buried in the rest of the verbiage.

But, no, I do not advocate revolution. Not even on the days I am simultaneously most pissed off at my employer, the POTUS, the SCOTUS, the COTHUS, politicians and liberals everywhere, AND Ted Thompson.

I doubt I would even if I believed my anarchist vision would prevail (which I don't) and even if I didn't believe I would end up being among the first lined up against the wall (which I do).

2. As for why I think anarchism would be an improvement over current America, let me just a few of my reasons without explanation for now and wait until I'm a little less tired. For the third day in a row I find myself not yet home as 9 pm. approach despite having abandoned Thuji before 7:30 am. But here's some reasons:
1. No individual can kill as many people or cause as much damage as any state in human history (including our own) has.
2. No company, no matter how multinational and humongous, can either.
3. States concentrate power, that's what they do. Imperial states concentrate it more.
4. Power corrupts, and more power corrupts more.
5. Human progress has happened because of the actions of free individuals acting in their self-interest, not because the right group happened to have power over others.
6. Free societies innovate more. More free societies innovate even more.
7. The genius of the American Experiment was in somehow finding a way to focus on limiting all types of power, not in ensuring that more people had power.
8. Empowerment inevitably leads back to #4.
9. Anarchism means freer markets. Freer markets mean more sustained economic growth. History shows that sustained economic growth has is accompanying by sustained improvements in health, nutrition, life expectancy, and other "non-material" measures of human improvement.
10. Free markets don't work by entitlement, they work because people are finding new ways to mutually benefit.

That's enough for now.


I could say, if there's no revolution advocated, then everything after is irrelevant, but that wouldn't be any fun. Are YOU of all people - with your capacity for seeing the big picture - ready to throw out the baby with the bath water - ignore the magnificent good of this country over frustration with all those -OTUSes?

As for your, "up against the wall" thing, it's called "survival of the fittest" - social Darwinism - no check on the evildoers from taking advantage of the good/weak/intellectual etc.

As for your numbered reasons for favoring anarchism:

1. and 2. I assume you are referring to war versus individual or corporate crimes. Yeah but ...... In most wars - all fought by THIS country, there is an element of right and wrong - We are right and the enemy is wrong/evil/oppressive. And of course, the individual and corporate killing would increase radically without being checked by government.

3. and 4. The LEGITIMATE role of government is limited to just a few items, but one of those, probably the main one, is protection - maintaining order against evildoers, foreign and domestic. Anarchy by definition precludes the existence of that protection.

I have to cut this short, but 5, 6, 7, etc. all dissolve away without the order and protection of at least the minimum of government.



Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
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