Cheesey
4 years ago
So....throwing out a few cases where there were bad cops somehow makes it okay to commit crimes and resist arrest for the thousands of others that do just that. The guy in Kenosha.....a career criminal who, if you watched the whole video, resisted arrest and caused what ended up happening to him. Had he at any point given up and complied with the police, he wouldn’t have been shot! But the hell with facts, right?
The kid that was being attacked and shot those people. Did he point his gun at the cops and start swearing at them? Nope. Held his arms up and complied.
The cop that knelt on Floyd’s neck will pay for his crime. But let’s ignore the fact that Floyd resisted arrest. Had he complied, he wouldn’t have end up on the ground.
That’s consistent with some groups. Don’t hold people accountable for their own actions and blame the police.
Cops put their lives on the line every single day, and sometimes only have split seconds to react or end up dead themselves. And the thousands that resist arrest sure don’t make their job any easier.

Look at the cop that shot that guy in Kenosha. He was yanking on the guys shirt, trying to stop him. Only at the last second when he had no other way to stop him did he shoot. But ignore that kind of fact which destroyed your “horrible cops” rant.
How many times should the cops scream “STOP!” To a criminal? Tasers didn’t stop him. They know he has a long criminal record and is capable of anything.
Not some innocent choir boy.
But let’s hang the police for doing their job and getting a dangerous criminal off the road, thus protecting REAL innocent civilians.

9,999 times out of 10,000 if you do what the police tell you to do, don’t act like a jackass, you will be fine. You might have to pay for whatever crime you committed, but you will have your day on court and not be in the cemetery.
Why is that so hard for some to comprehend?
Z Smith of the Packers complied with the cops. Did he get beat or killed? Nope! Why? Because he didn’t act like an idiot. Pretty silmple I would say.
Put the blame on who it deserves to be on. Idiots that think they are above the law.
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Smokey
4 years ago
Taking the facts of the case alone, the suspect was completely wrong and the police were completely correct.

Using this case to feed the social fire were currently experiencing is both incorrect and making matters worse instead of better. Unless your IQ is below Forrest Gump's, your aware that minorities need to be treated better. What you rarely hear is that they also need to change their behavior as well. It's not a one way street !

Defunding police, ignoring violations of the law, or requiring police to put their safety at greater risk only emboldens the small percentage that are causing most of the trouble. IMO, more police visits/education in schools and communities with emphasis on how to respond to police will bear fruit moving forward. The key is to change the culture and the thinking that contributes to disrespect for society's laws.

Additionally, expanding the middle class to include minorities will also serve to lessen these social problems. Shrinking the middle class only exacerbates the situation.
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earthquake
4 years ago

So....throwing out a few cases where there were bad cops

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 



It's not simply a few bad cops. What I posted was a small sample of recent examples, if you care to educate yourself you could look into the matter. This has been going on for decades, centuries, and cops are very rarely charged or convicted or even fired in cases where they are clearly at fault.

somehow makes it okay to commit crimes and resist arrest for the thousands of others that do just that.



You'll have to quote where I said it's okay for anyone to commit crimes. What I (and many others) are after is for the rule of law to run its course. If someone commits a crime, they should be arrested, brought to court/trial, and convicted if found guilty. When cops use excessive force to kill suspected criminals, it circumvents the entire criminal justice system. The police should not have the power to be judge, jury, and executioner. It's odd that this is seen as a controversial opinion.

The guy in Kenosha.....a career criminal who, if you watched the whole video, resisted arrest and caused what ended up happening to him. Had he at any point given up and complied with the police, he wouldn’t have been shot! But the hell with facts, right?



And yet there was no reason for the police to shoot him, let alone 7 times in the back. There are many levels of action the police can take to subdue a suspect beyond pulling on a t-shirt, and short of emptying a magazine into their back, especially when there are multiple officers on the scene to deal with any threat. For instance, physically restrain him, which should have been easy given the superiority of numbers the officers had, or deploy pepper spray. Or shoot a warning shot. Or shoot his tires out if they were concerned he would flee in the vehicle and cause anyone harm.

They tried to tase him, that didn't work, so the officer gave up and shot him 7 times in the back. Even if we were to agree that using a firearm was the best course of action, shooting the man 7 times was completely unnecessary, and at best, criminally negligent.

Too often police discharge their firearms as the end-all-be-all solution to problems. We need to talk about better training for our police, about de-escalation. These situations will not improve until we start to take them seriously.

The kid that was being attacked and shot those people. Did he point his gun at the cops and start swearing at them? Nope. Held his arms up and complied. The cop that knelt on Floyd’s neck will pay for his crime. But let’s ignore the fact that Floyd resisted arrest. Had he complied, he wouldn’t have end up on the ground.
That’s consistent with some groups. Don’t hold people accountable for their own actions and blame the police.
Cops put their lives on the line every single day, and sometimes only have split seconds to react or end up dead themselves. And the thousands that resist arrest sure don’t make their job any easier.

Look at the cop that shot that guy in Kenosha. He was yanking on the guys shirt, trying to stop him. Only at the last second when he had no other way to stop him did he shoot. But ignore that kind of fact which destroyed your “horrible cops” rant.
How many times should the cops scream “STOP!” To a criminal? Tasers didn’t stop him. They know he has a long criminal record and is capable of anything.
Not some innocent choir boy.
But let’s hang the police for doing their job and getting a dangerous criminal off the road, thus protecting REAL innocent civilians.

9,999 times out of 10,000 if you do what the police tell you to do, don’t act like a jackass, you will be fine. You might have to pay for whatever crime you committed, but you will have your day on court and not be in the cemetery.
Why is that so hard for some to comprehend?
Z Smith of the Packers complied with the cops. Did he get beat or killed? Nope! Why? Because he didn’t act like an idiot. Pretty silmple I would say.
Put the blame on who it deserves to be on. Idiots that think they are above the law.



When discussing an individual event, it makes sense to talk about blame for individuals. However, People are not upset by and are not protesting a singular event. This is about a historic trend of events, about the actions of groups, about systemic problems. If you allow yourself to think of it in its greater context, you may begin to understand.
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Cheesey
4 years ago

It's not simply a few bad cops. What I posted was a small sample of recent examples, if you care to educate yourself you could look into the matter. This has been going on for decades, centuries, and cops are very rarely charged or convicted or even fired in cases where they are clearly at fault.



You'll have to quote where I said it's okay for anyone to commit crimes. What I (and many others) are after is for the rule of law to run its course. If someone commits a crime, they should be arrested, brought to court/trial, and convicted if found guilty. When cops use excessive force to kill suspected criminals, it circumvents the entire criminal justice system. The police should not have the power to be judge, jury, and executioner. It's odd that this is seen as a controversial opinion.



And yet there was no reason for the police to shoot him, let alone 7 times in the back. There are many levels of action the police can take to subdue a suspect beyond pulling on a t-shirt, and short of emptying a magazine into their back, especially when there are multiple officers on the scene to deal with any threat. For instance, physically restrain him, which should have been easy given the superiority of numbers the officers had, or deploy pepper spray. Or shoot a warning shot. Or shoot his tires out if they were concerned he would flee in the vehicle and cause anyone harm.

They tried to tase him, that didn't work, so the officer gave up and shot him 7 times in the back. Even if we were to agree that using a firearm was the best course of action, shooting the man 7 times was completely unnecessary, and at best, criminally negligent.

Too often police discharge their firearms as the end-all-be-all solution to problems. We need to talk about better training for our police, about de-escalation. These situations will not improve until we start to take them seriously.



When discussing an individual event, it makes sense to talk about blame for individuals. However, People are not upset by and are not protesting a singular event. This is about a historic trend of events, about the actions of groups, about systemic problems. If you allow yourself to think of it in its greater context, you may begin to understand.

Originally Posted by: earthquake 


You keep saying there was no reason to shoot him.
They tried non lethal force and it didn’t stop him. Why can’t you put the blame on the criminal for a change? Is he not responsible for what happened to him? All he had to do is what the cops told him to do! And had they wrestled him to the ground, do you not think it went through the cops mind that if they did that they would get sued, lose their jobs and end up being vilified?
You know, like what happens every time a black man resists arrest and ends up beaten? People like you want to take away all power from the police, then scream when someone ends up dead or injured.
When you start holding criminals responsible for their own actions, then I’ll take you seriously.
You say that when someone commits a crime it should go through the judicial system. And it WOULD if the criminals would not fight the cops when they are trying to arrest them.
The cops did not “give up” when the taser didn’t stop the guy. It only took a couple of seconds to end up in a deadly encounter. Once again, 100% caused by the criminal resisting arrest.
Had he complied with the cops, he would have had his day in court. Whose fault is it that he got shot? Not the police. He brought it on himself by his own actions. If you can’t see that, you are purposely ignoring the truth. Had a white man done the same thing, it would have ended the same way.
If you act like a jackass when the cops confront you, chances are it won’t end pretty for you. Put the blame on the idiot, not on the police.
The guy saw they had their guns pulled, yet he himself chose to ignore that. Who’s the fool????
If a cop pulled a gun on me, I’d do what he said, PERIOD!
But I’m a stupid white guy.
Having dark skin shouldn’t give you a free pass to act like an idiot.
There are consequences to your actions. His consequences were that he’s now paralyzed from the waist down.
Had he not resisted, he’d still be able to walk.
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Smokey
4 years ago
earthquake, your argument leaves out 2 key points.

1. The suspect was reaching back into the car such that what he might emerge with a lethal weapon that could place the officers at serious risk.
2. A knife was found were the suspect was reaching back into the car.

This is not a social justice case, but a case of just how stupid is/was the suspect. Using it to fan the flames demonstrates how eager some are to spin a case to fit their need. This instead should be held up as how not to act when detained by police and the possible tragic consequences of not obeying the police.
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KRK
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
4 years ago

It's true. If we just obey the law, do as instructed, everything should go smooth.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

Sadly, the "bad apple" pilot(s) would seem to be the mostly case in Malaysian Airlines flight 370 crash. 227 passengers dead.

None of them, however, had the chance to be safe by following orders from police.


In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
earthquake
4 years ago

earthquake, your argument leaves out 2 key points.

1. The suspect was reaching back into the car such that what he might emerge with a lethal weapon that could place the officers at serious risk.
2. A knife was found were the suspect was reaching back into the car.

This is not a social justice case, but a case of just how stupid is/was the suspect. Using it to fan the flames demonstrates how eager some are to spin a case to fit their need. This instead should be held up as how not to act when detained by police and the possible tragic consequences of not obeying the police.

Originally Posted by: Smokey 



And the argument that shooting the man 7 times was justified assumes 2 (potentially faulty) points:

1. That it was a forgone conclusion the man was going for a knife and intended use it against the officers or anyone else - being in possession of a knife is not the same thing as using a knife as a deadly weapon - many of you likely carry knives on your person or in your car
2. That shooting him, let alone 7 times, was an appropriate response or the only available response, even if he was wielding a knife

As to whether we should consider this case in the greater context of police brutality, I think there is no way to avoid it. Certainly, Jacob Blake was not a squeaky clean innocent in this case, and he must bear responsibility for putting himself in the situation and for his actions. By responsibility, I mean being arrested and taken to court, not shot 7 times.

However, the extreme reaction of the police merits scrutiny as well. If our goal is for police to kill fewer people (this should be a worthwhile goal no matter what part of the political spectrum you fall on), looking at how to prevent escalating a situation to the point at which an officer feels his only option is to shoot someone 7 times in the back, is a matter very much worth discussing.

Social rights advocates have had an arguably dubious tendency to only focus on squeaky clean examples in the past. Famously, Rosa Parks was not the first black woman to refuse to sit in the back of the bus, but she was "presentable" to the media. If we look at these cases through a microscope and start to pick and choose, start to say this person is worthy of basic humanity, but this person has made some mistakes so they are not, we end up in a very ugly place. What we're seeing these days is a public call to do better, and better for all, regardless of their race, criminal history, etc.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/13/opinion/police-shootings-guns.html 
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Cheesey
4 years ago
The cop was making sure the criminal wouldn’t be able to hurt or kill anyone else. I’m sure he didn’t want to shoot the guy, but was forced into that end by the criminal.
Even if there ended up not being a weapon in the car, the police have to act as if there might be one.
Are they supposed to let him get in the car? Give him the opportunity to grab a weapon?
Easy to “armchair quarterback” when it’s not your life on the line.
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Zero2Cool
4 years ago
It's disheartening how the more you try to be open minded and understanding of multiple perspectives, people with singular agendas and ideals just refuse to respect the effort.

Sadly, the "bad apple" pilot(s) would seem to be the mostly case in Malaysian Airlines flight 370 crash. 227 passengers dead.

None of them, however, had the chance to be safe by following orders from police.

Originally Posted by: KRK 



Are you saying the passengers didn't have a chance to be safe by following orders from the police? Because if you are, that's gotta be the ringer for most ignorant analogy I've read today. And I've read Twitter comments.

For those who are being obtuse, the point Chris Rock was making is that some professions (e.g. Police Officer, Pilot, Surgeon) you cannot have bad apples.

As a police officer you never know if a routine traffic stop is going to be routine, or if the person is running scared with warrants and pulls a gun on you. That's real people, that is REAL. They NEVER know. You can speak to how unlikely it is and the statistics all you want, but one bullet can end a life.

Which is why I also feel seven bullets being shot at someone with their back to you is excessive. Make no mistake about it, I feel that Jacob Blake put himself, the police and those around him, INCLUDING HIS CHILDREN in a horrible situation and by all accounts, unnecessarily. I just can't reason with shooting someone that many times with their back to you.

After watching the documentary "13th", I think statement/observation has truth to it.

Lots of people are saying it's race, but I actually think it's culture. Whites/Asians cultures are much more prone to promoting submitting to authority figures (unless it's taxes), where other race cultures don't promote submitting to authority figures.

Originally Posted by: beast 




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Cheesey
4 years ago
Blake being shot in the back doesn’t bother me. The reason he was shot in the back was because he was ignoring the cops and his back was the only thing they had to make certain to stop him. Like I already said, he KNEW the cops had their guns drawn. If he chose to ignore that, he’s the one to blame.

If black people go into a situation already with a bad attitude towards the police, do they not realize that their attitude could cause things to escalate? What do they think could possibly happen?
Obey cops- you live
Fight the cops- you could end up hurt or dead
Easy to understand, wouldn’t you agree?
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