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gbguy20
4 years ago

People always talk about the side effects being worse than the disease, but they never specify what these supposed side effects are, much less evaluate what the probabilities of their happening might be.

Ever wondered why one of the listed side effects for Imodium is diarrhea? Because if someone—anyone—reports that something—anything—happened while they were using a medication, the pharmaceutical companies are required by law to list it on the insert, regardless of whether there is the slightest bit of evidence or even plausibility that there could be any causal connection. So yeah, one of the side effects of Tylenol is headaches, and one of the side effects of Viagra is impotence. You're already experiencing those symptoms. They don't go away instantly!

The law is idiotic and, worse, counterproductive.

The availability of this meaningless information, devoid as it is of any context, freaks patients out and seriously damages the therapeutic relationship between doctor and patient. No matter how intelligent they think they are, laymen simply don't have the knowledge or expertise to properly assess these kinds of risks. I'm a medical school graduate who's spent years studying this stuff, and I'll freely tell you I don't know shit. Board-certified physicians have spent many more years studying this stuff, and they will tell you they don't know shit either. They forget more medicine on a daily basis than laymen will ever learn in their entire lifetimes. Why do patients fancy themselves qualified physicians just because they have Google, search results of which are driven by sensationalism, paranoia, and conspiracy theories, at their fingertips? It's annoying, it's a waste of precious time, and it's a classic case of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action. Worst of all, it can be downright dangerous.

Do yourself a favor: don't go on Google before you go to the doctor—or after you get home, for that matter. You don't know what the hell you're doing, and you're just going to cause yourself a ton of unnecessary anxiety and stress.

Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 



Can you post this last part to my antiviaxx, hypochondriac, google doctor of a sister in law, please?

She texted me that covid conspiracy video that went viral a couple of weeks ago freaking out to "make sure i watch it before they take it down so i dont miss out on the truth."
BAD EMAIL because the address couldn ot be found, or is unable to receive mail.
Cheesey
4 years ago
Did any of you see what’s going on in major cities since the shutdown of restaurants?
The rats that are used to surviving off scraps in restaurant dumpsters are getting desperate. They are canabilizing, and looking for food where they usually don’t go.
So....will another plague be started by rats attacking people out of desperation? I saw a clip from New Orleans where the rats are over running the city streets.
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Zero2Cool
4 years ago

People always talk about the side effects being worse than the disease, but they never specify what these supposed side effects are, much less evaluate what the probabilities of their happening might be.

Ever wondered why one of the listed side effects for Imodium is diarrhea? Because if someone—anyone—reports that something—anything—happened while they were using a medication, the pharmaceutical companies are required by law to list it on the insert, regardless of whether there is the slightest bit of evidence or even plausibility that there could be any causal connection. So yeah, one of the side effects of Tylenol is headaches, and one of the side effects of Viagra is impotence. You're already experiencing those symptoms. They don't go away instantly!

The law is idiotic and, worse, counterproductive.

The availability of this meaningless information, devoid as it is of any context, freaks patients out and seriously damages the therapeutic relationship between doctor and patient. No matter how intelligent they think they are, laymen simply don't have the knowledge or expertise to properly assess these kinds of risks. I'm a medical school graduate who's spent years studying this stuff, and I'll freely tell you I don't know shit. Board-certified physicians have spent many more years studying this stuff, and they will tell you they don't know shit either. They forget more medicine on a daily basis than laymen will ever learn in their entire lifetimes. Why do patients fancy themselves qualified physicians just because they have Google, search results of which are driven by sensationalism, paranoia, and conspiracy theories, at their fingertips? It's annoying, it's a waste of precious time, and it's a classic case of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action. Worst of all, it can be downright dangerous.

Do yourself a favor: don't go on Google before you go to the doctor—or after you get home, for that matter. You don't know what the hell you're doing, and you're just going to cause yourself a ton of unnecessary anxiety and stress.

Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 



Where does this post fit into anything stated here?
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wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
4 years ago

Even more damaging than the lists of side effects on drug inserts is the chaos of VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Effect Reporting System). If you report that your daughter died in a car accident six weeks after getting a vaccine, that goes in as an adverse event. If you report that a vaccine transformed you into the Incredible Hulk or Wonder Woman , the bureaucrats will dutifully enter that information into the database for the rest of the world to find on Google. They don't have a choice—it's required by law.

The data is worse than meaningless. It's dangerously misleading.

You know how many deaths have been causally linked to Gardisil since it was introduced in 2006? Zero. Motherfucking zero. But I bet that won't find that out on the first or even the tenth website that pops up in Google. Maybe not even the twentieth. Meanwhile, deaths from cervical cancer, which historically was one of the top two or three cancer killers of women worldwide, have plummeted over 90 percent since the advent of Pap smears and now Gardisil. Yet people are so panicked over apocryphal reports of girls committing suicide months after getting the shot that they refuse to immunize their children. To this day, barely twenty percent of boys are getting vaccinated against HPV, despite the fact that we are experiencing an explosion of oral and throat cancer among men in this country, treatments for which are grotesquely disfiguring.

It's immoral and it's evil, that's what it is.

Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 



A few days ago I heard the Fed is considering reducing the listed side effects to the few that are probable and serious. (My words not theirs)
Seems that they are concerned the side effect message is being lost on the masses with so many stupid and unlikely ones.
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KRK
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
4 years ago
In regard to lockdown health and human costs, this is a letter form 500 Doctors to POTUS


President Donald J. Trump
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20500

May 19, 2020

Dear Mr. President:

Thousands of physicians in all specialties and from all States would like to express our gratitude for your leadership. We write to you today to express our alarm over the exponentially growing negative health consequences of the national shutdown.In medical terms, the shutdown was a mass casualty incident.During a mass casualty incident, victims are immediately triaged to black, red,yellow, or green.

The first group, triage level black, includes those who require too many resources to save during a mass crisis. The red group has severe injuries that are survivable with treatment, the yellow group has serious injuries that are not immediately life threatening, and the green group has minor injuries. The red group receives highest priority. The next priority is to ensure that the other two groups do not deteriorate a level. Decades of research have shown that by strictly following this algorithm, we save the maximum number of lives.Millions of Americans are already at triage level red. These include 150,000 Americans per month who would have had a new cancer detected through routine screening that hasn’t happened, millions who have missed routine dental care to fix problems strongly linked to heart disease/death, and preventable cases of stroke, heart attack, and child abuse.

Suicide hotline phone calls have increased 600%.Tens of millions are at triage level yellow. Liquor sales have increased 300-600%,cigarettes sales have increased, rent has gone unpaid, family relationships have become frayed, and millions of well-child check-ups have been missed.Hundreds of millions are at triage level green. These are people who currently are solvent, but at risk should economic conditions worsen. Poverty and financial uncertainty is closely linked to poor health. A continued shutdown means hundreds of millions of Americans will downgrade a level. The following are real examples from our practices.

Patient E.S. is a mother with two children whose office job was reduced to part-time and whose husband was furloughed. The father is drinking more, the mother is depressed and not managing her diabetes well, and the children are barely doing any schoolwork.

Patient A.F. has chronic but previously stable health conditions. Her elective hip replacement was delayed, which caused her to become nearly sedentary, resulting in a pulmonary embolism in April.

Patient R.T. is an elderly nursing home patient, who had a small stroke in early March but was expected to make a nearly complete recovery. Since the shutdown, he has had no physical or speech therapy, and no visitors. He has lost weight, and is deteriorating rather than making progress.

Patient S.O. is a college freshman who cannot return to normal life, school, and friendships. He risks depression, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, trauma, and future financial uncertainty.We are alarmed at what appears to be the lack of consideration for the future health of our patients.

The downstream health effects of deteriorating a level are being massively under-estimated and under-reported. This is an order of magnitude error.It is impossible to overstate the short, medium, and long-term harm to people’s health with a continued shutdown. Losing a job is one of life’s most stressful events, and the effect on a person’s health is not lessened because it also has happened to 30 million other people. Keeping schools and universities closed is incalculably detrimental for children, teenagers, and young adults for decades to come.

The millions of casualties of a continued shutdown will be hiding in plain sight,but they will be called alcoholism, homelessness, suicide, heart attack, stroke, or kidney failure. In youths it will be called financial instability, unemployment, despair, drug addiction, unplanned pregnancies, poverty, and abuse.Because the harm is diffuse, there are those who hold that it does not exist. We,the undersigned, know otherwise.Please let us know if we may be of assistance.


In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
Cheesey
4 years ago
Dang it KRK! How DARE you show that factual letter in here!
(Seriously, I’m glad you did!)
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all_about_da_packers
4 years ago

An actual cure might never be found. And if they do find a vaccine, it could take years. And to know what long time side effects are also unknown. Just watch TV and see lawyer ads against drugs that have ended up causing worse problems.
They can’t even cure a common cold.
So keep the country on lockdown until when?
First it was a couple weeks, then a month, then 2 months. Now how long? Let people choose to stay home or go out and back to work.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 



This is misleading - never have I seen an add in the United States (nor Canada) that affirms a drug causing worse problems. Speaking as someone who is knowledgeable about this, law firms do run commercials asking people taking certain medication to contact them if they have experienced certain symptoms or health problems - this has, in my experience, always been in the context of having people reach out to a law firm for the purpose of establishing a class action against the drug manufacturer. In other words, such ads are like infomercials: seeking to promote a product of a law firm (particularly class actions, which are big business for law firms) to the general public in order to have more people join the lawsuit against the drug manufacturer (by calling the phone number provided) because a class action has to be certified by a judge in order to go forward in the court system - and one requirement to be certified is showing a big enough group people. Judging the efficacy of medicine (or really anything) by law firm ads is wrong.

The above, honestly, kinda also shows the reason to not tell a person who is a professional in a field that they are ignoring facts relating to something that ties into their field. The issue isn't whether or not people can have differences in opinion (different opinions should obviously be encouraged), but the wisdom of telling someone who is actually qualified on an issue by having lived, breathed and studied the topic at issue (the Mueller Report, impeachment, etc.) that they are missing something or uninformed about it because you read a lot of articles and/or saw a lot of videos/news clips discussing about it.

And, speaking as someone whose most recent work involved advising life sciences / pharmaceutical companies and whose partner is a doctor, a vaccine will exist in record time for COVID-19. Other than conjecture, I'm not sure I have heard anyone suggest no vaccine will ever be found - the amount of resources being poured into creating a vaccine, the previous research to build on regarding other coronavirus strains, the unheard of urgency and expediency being shown by the FDA for COVID-19 trials, the number of life sciences companies seeking to raise capital to fund their ongoing COVID-19 initiatives, and the sheer gold mine that is a COVID-19 vaccine all make the existence of a vaccine a damn-near certainty. As for curing the common cold - flu vaccines are designed to be proactive - comprised to combat virus strains that medical professionals believe will be prevalent that season. Since such vaccines are always projections of what virus strains could be most common, it isn't surprising such flu-vaccines are not always 100% effective.

This is the biggest problem with conservatives and GOP supporters (and I'm speaking as someone who does NOT wholeheartedly support the "Trump has mismanaged this pandemic" view) - the sheer scare tactics and straw-men arguments being created in order to advance reopening are disappointing and nonsensical. A vaccine will be found in record time, social distancing was necessary (as well as restricting travel from abroad), more staggered and delayed economic reopenings would assist in managing the spread of COVID-19, COVID-19 is a pandemic of unseen portions in modern times ... all these can be true but still lead to the conclusion that states should be emphasizing reopening and restarting their economies because modern life in almost every facet is underpinned by the need for a stable economy and work activity. And, in various and multiple ways, a "stable economy" and "work activity" globally depend on the U.S. as its engine that is actually running (i.e., the states being open and operating). No need to resort to scare tactics or arguments devoid of logic.
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all_about_da_packers
4 years ago

Regrettably

COVID-19 Expert: Virus Will Rage Until Infection Rate Hits 60%-70%’
By Eric A. Blair
Published May 12, 2020 at 2:18pm

Isolation doesn’t work...
And because the coronavirus can be asymptomatic in as many as 50% of those infected, there are likely millions who have already had the virus but didn’t even know...

The survey suggested that the death rate from the virus could be as low as 0.18% of COVID-19 patients, which means the actual death rate in the city is far lower than reported.

Originally Posted by: KRK 



Just my opinion, but the issue I have with such articles is that they make an assumption to one set of data that isn't also being applied to another set of data. The article can't assume under-reporting COVID-19 positive results, but then go on acting like the reported death-counts numbers are accurate. That feels like skewing the data to be biased to a result you want (hey guys, more people were infected than we know, but exactly the same number died, so the virus isn't that serious).

And, for what its worth, I'm all for reopening things now - but shoddy math / data interpretation in journalism is still bad analysis.
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Cheesey
4 years ago
It’s been reported that many states are raising the actual numbers of covid deaths to get more government money. I have stated it before, and now my assumption has been shown to be true.
Common sense along with opening things up should lower the amount of people getting sick.
What I don’t understand is people thinking automatically that a vaccine will be found quickly, or at all. The common cold still has no cure. Do I hope they come up with a vaccine? Heck yes! But there’s no guarantee. And we can’t keep the country closed until they come up with one.
Social distancing and common sense will help until then.
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all_about_da_packers
4 years ago

What I don’t understand is people thinking automatically that a vaccine will be found quickly, or at all. The common cold still has no cure. Do I hope they come up with a vaccine? Heck yes! But there’s no guarantee. And we can’t keep the country closed until they come up with one.
Social distancing and common sense will help until then.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 



Again, you ignore the science dude. Many countries are in the clinical trial stages of COVID-19 vaccines, with medical journals (Lancet, for example, less than a week ago) reporting the clinical trial results so far have been promising for these vaccines. Governments of countries are literally underwriting scientific efforts to develop a vaccine at a remarkable rate, not to mention the investment banks underwriting deals for life science companies working towards COVID-19 treatments and vaccines in an otherwise dead period for global capital markets. Moderna literally had a $1.3 billion dollar public offering last week on the strength of its vaccine trials with the optimistic forecasts having an emergency vaccine ready by December.

There will be a vaccine. There is literally ample evidence suggesting this, along with actual clinical trials that have resulted in anti-bodies developing in those that were given the vaccines in trials. The common-cold cure has nothing to do with what the science says right now about COVID-19.

I get you have an opinion - but there isn't a point in asserting your opinion on vaccines as fact. Particularly when the science doesn't back up the opinion strongly. And I don't mean to suggest your conclusion is wrong - I'm all for opening the country up before then (and Georgia is a prime example of opening up not being doom and gloom, despite what many (including I) thought was a wrong decision to open up early). But your opinion on a COVID-19 vaccine is not supported by the facts.
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