Rockmolder
11 years ago

If Finley would have been cut, they would have likely pursued another via free agency (Dustin Keller, et al.). Best case scenario, those guys would have signed for $4-5 million a year. Rock stated he thinks Keller is better, but that's subjective. He's smaller (6'2), and still not a good blocker. There were/are some other options out there, but the net gain is likely only $2-4 million in savings AT MOST. The $8 million number sounds like a lot, but in order to have any kind of serviceable replacement, the savings would only be a few million for someone that is arguably equally as talented as Finley with "less potential," and that isn't familiar with the Packers system yet. That's assuming they could even sign those players period, or for anything less than $8 million.

I guess I just don't see it as a big of a deal as others. He's likely to be a bit overpaid this year, and will probably be gone next season as Nerd mentioned; either by not having a very good season or breaking out and pricing himself out of Green Bay. As others have mentioned, with Jennings gone there's a reasonable chance he could earn every penny of that $8 million, especially since it's a contract year. If he does have a great season, the money he's getting paid won't be any issue at all. He caught the Packers in a slightly tough spot, and they have to 'eat' $2-3 million for a season and hope he has a great year (which isn't unrealistic, imo).

Originally Posted by: doddpower 



Fair enough. Keller didn't perform admirably last year, but he has been a more reliable receiver than Finley in the years before that.

I think that, if you sign someone in free agency, there's more than enough time to get familiar with a system. Players change teams in FA all the time and just contnue producing the next year. If a guy can join the Patriots offense as a WR and completely grasp what Josh McDaniels wants to do in one off-season, I reckon a TE could get our offense figured out and produce.

Maybe you can't build up a chemistry between the QB and receiver that fast, but that's not something I've seen progressing that well between Finley and Rodgers, either.

As for the potential part... The man has been with our team since 2008. He can't get over his problems with drops, maturity and consistency. I was a huge fan of his when he joined us and, for a reasonable price, I'd still give him a chance, but at $8 million, I just don't like the investment.

Right now, I'd rather have a reliable option who doesn't have that much potential. A guy like Martellus Bennett would've been a nice, all-round TE, who's averaging $5 million a year. Not a difference maker, but a good, solid player. But maybe that's more of a personel preference than one you can blame Finley for.

That saves you "just" $3 million, but that is money you could've invested in a player like Adrian Wilson, Bernard Pollard, Antwan Barnes, Kenny Phillips, Leon Washington, Chris Canty etc.

Yes, that's easy to say in hindsight, but the combined contribution of a more afforable TE, who can't be that big of a drop-off from Finley, with one of those players would've helped us more than just Finley alone.

Of course, we still have some money free under our cap, so cutting Finley isn't something we have to do, but even if we just saved up that $3 million, I feel like rolling that over to next year or using it to restructure Matthews and front-load his contract some more would've helped us more than holding on to Jermike.

Lastly, I'll leave you with this. Blegh.

Most overvalued tight ends in 2012: 

2. Jermichael Finley, Green Bay Packers

2012 Cap Hit: $5.2m
2012 Performance Based Value: $1.0m
Value Differential: -$4.2m

Given that only two players at the position had more drops than Finley’s nine and with his 10.8 yards per catch the lowest of his career, it’s not surprising that he finished the regular season as our 47th-ranked tight end. For a player that offers little in terms of blocking, he has to do better as a receiver to avoid making this list next season, as continued unreliability will have Aaron Rodgers, and maybe the Packers this offseason, looking elsewhere.

Zero2Cool
11 years ago
Jimmy Graham and Aaron Hernandez had more drops than Finley. And the graphic attached shows that after his injury was healed that he was playing through btw ... he improved quite a bit. Keep in mind, there are no stats to show how he stretched the field and opened up the underneath routes for Randall Cobb and other WR. That's probably why you don't give him proper due in that regard. You don't have a number to tie to it.  Untitled25.png You have insufficient rights to see the content.
UserPostedImage
play2win
11 years ago
We need decoy stats!

We just gave him a $3,000,000 bonus for all of 2 TDs in 2012. He dropped more TD passes than he caught! Ach. I'm done talking about him. I hope like hell he has a great year with the Packers and that his season ends with he and the rest of his Packers teammates hoisting the Lombardi Trophy! I'll gladly eat that crow.

We could have added Dashon Goldson at S with that money. This is a classic example of Ted overvaluing his own players to a fault.
Zero2Cool
11 years ago

We need decoy stats!

We just gave him a $3,000,000 bonus for all of 2 TDs in 2012. He dropped more TD passes than he caught! Ach. I'm done talking about him. I hope like hell he has a great year with the Packers and that his season ends with he and the rest of his Packers teammates hoisting the Lombardi Trophy! I'll gladly eat that crow.

We could have added Dashon Goldson at S with that money. This is a classic example of Ted overvaluing his own players to a fault.

Originally Posted by: play2win 



What statistics do you have to support that Jermichael Finley dropped touchdown catches? can you provide game by game stats to support this claim?


Who's to say Goldson would be any more worth the money than Finley? There's a reason free agents are free agents. But I want the stats on the dropped TD passes. That interests me greatly.
UserPostedImage
Rockmolder
11 years ago

Jimmy Graham and Aaron Hernandez had more drops than Finley. And the graphic attached shows that after his injury was healed that he was playing through btw ... he improved quite a bit. Keep in mind, there are no stats to show how he stretched the field and opened up the underneath routes for Randall Cobb and other WR. That's probably why you don't give him proper due in that regard. You don't have a number to tie to it.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



For this statement to make any difference from any other TE in the league, it'd mean he'd have to be double covered or at least have a safety slide over to him.

If that's the big selling point, draft a guy like Chris Gragg on day 3 and we've replaced Finley, already, for less than a million.

Let's not get any stats involved, then.

Did our Offense appear to run smoother when Finley was in? Did Finley show his athleticism by grabbing hard to catch balls out of the air? Did he appear to stretch the field moreso than Nelson, Jennings or Jones? Has he been reliable or trustworthy as a receiver, something I want even more out of my TE than my WR?

No, rarely, rarely, not at all...

I'm still not seeing where he's worth that $8,5 million.
Zero2Cool
11 years ago

For this statement to make any difference from any other TE in the league, it'd mean he'd have to be double covered or at least have a safety slide over to him.

If that's the big selling point, draft a guy like Chris Gragg on day 3 and we've replaced Finley, already, for less than a million.

Let's not get any stats involved, then.

Did our Offense appear to run smoother when Finley was in? Did Finley show his athleticism by grabbing hard to catch balls out of the air? Did he appear to stretch the field moreso than Nelson, Jennings or Jones? Has he been reliable or trustworthy as a receiver, something I want even more out of my TE than my WR?

No, rarely, rarely, not at all...

I'm still not seeing where he's worth that $8,5 million.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



First, you have a heavy bias against Jermichael Finley over gloves, so your take is quite tainted.
Second, yes, $8.5 is too much for Jermichael Finley, as who said several times, oh, that was me.
Finally, what I am also saying is he's not a pile of garbage like some are insinuating and that he's a complete waste of money and Ted Thompson failed in this regard.


UserPostedImage
Rockmolder
11 years ago

First, you have a heavy bias against Jermichael Finley over gloves, so your take is quite tainted.
Second, yes, $8.5 is too much for Jermichael Finley, as who said several times, oh, that was me.
Finally, what I am also saying is he's not a pile of garbage like some are insinuating and that he's a complete waste of money and Ted Thompson failed in this regard.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Not really. It does add to the view that he's immature and irresponsible to a certain degree, though.

Glad we agree about that, because that's all I'm saying, as well. Had we had him at $3-4 million, I'd be happy. Point I'm trying to make is that, with some simple moves, we could've had a player of the same caliber but at half the price. Not as athletic, but a lot more reliable and consistent.
Zero2Cool
11 years ago

Not really. It does add to the view that he's immature and irresponsible to a certain degree, though.

Glad we agree about that, because that's all I'm saying, as well. Had we had him at $3-4 million, I'd be happy. Point I'm trying to make is that, with some simple moves, we could've had a player of the same caliber but at half the price. Not as athletic, but a lot more reliable and consistent.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



I'd have been fine with the Packers going in with Andrew Quarless as the starter ... assuming he's 100% or will be soon.
UserPostedImage
play2win
11 years ago

What statistics do you have to support that Jermichael Finley dropped touchdown catches? can you provide game by game stats to support this claim?


Who's to say Goldson would be any more worth the money than Finley? There's a reason free agents are free agents. But I want the stats on the dropped TD passes. That interests me greatly.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



No. I based those comments on what I saw last season. I know what I saw. I know he dropped more than two TDs in 2013. If you think differently, it is your prerogative.

http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2012/10/20/3531586/jermichael-finley-green-bay-packers 

This shows his targets and drops per game:
http://www.fftoday.com/stats/players/2912/Jermichael_Finley 

And, this is Bob McGinn, a person who put plenty of work into evaluating Jermichael Finley, with comments from other pro scouts:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-seem-to-be-finished-with-finley-v081e07-183664521.html 

Here, Zero2Cool, my bud... chew on THIS ONE!: 😆
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/te 

Amongst all TEs, Finley only ranks #15 in DYAR, and #18 in DVOA! Unbelievable. 😆 😆 😆
(I laugh because I have no clue what any of that means...)


The whole thing is a value issue, and I think you've already agreed we are on the short end on that one. My opinion is this bonus was money poorly spent, not to mention the year long commitment to him, with a $8.75M cap figure. In essence, we overpaid him greatly, where he would have been hard pressed to get anything close to that in the open market, with his numbers. So, I'm looking at this as akin to a very poor FA signing, by keeping the player on at that figure, rather than outright releasing him.

Again, now all we can do is hope for the best. I don't like what happened there though.
Fan Shout
packerfanoutwest (48m) : Inactives tonight for the Pack: Alexander- knee Bullard - ankle Williams - quad Walker -ankle Monk Heath
packerfanoutwest (50m) : No Jaire, but hopefully the front 7 destroys the line of scrimmage & forces Rattler into a few passes to McKinney.
packerfanoutwest (1h) : minny could be #1 seed and the Lions #5 seed
Zero2Cool (3h) : We'd have same Division and Conference records. Strength of schedule we edge them
Zero2Cool (3h) : I just checked. What tie breaker?
bboystyle (3h) : yes its possible but unlikely. If we do get the 5th, we face the NFCS winner
Zero2Cool (3h) : Ahh, ok.
bboystyle (3h) : yes due to tie breaker
Zero2Cool (3h) : I mean, unlikely, yes, but mathematically, 5th is possible by what I'm reading.
Zero2Cool (3h) : If Vikings lose out, Packers win out, Packers get 5th, right?
bboystyle (3h) : Minny isnt going to lose out so 5th seed is out of the equation. We are playing for the 6th or 7th seed which makes no difference
Mucky Tundra (4h) : beast, the ad revenue goes to the broadcast company but they gotta pay to air the game on their channel/network
beast (5h) : If we win tonight the game is still relative in terms of 5th, 6th or 7th seed... win and it's 5th or 6th, lose and it's 6th or 7th
beast (5h) : Mucky, I thought the ad revenue went to the broadcasting companies or the NFL, at least not directly
Zero2Cool (5h) : I think the revenue share is moot, isn't it? That's the CBA an Salary Cap handling that.
bboystyle (5h) : i mean game becomes irrelevant if we win tonight. Just a game where we are trying to play spoilers to Vikings chance at the #1 seed
Mucky Tundra (5h) : beast, I would guess ad revenue from more eyes watching tv
Zero2Cool (5h) : I would think it would hurt the home team because people would have to cancel last minute maybe? i dunno
beast (6h) : I agree that it's BS for fans planning on going to the game. But how does it bring in more money? I'm guessing indirectly?
packerfanoutwest (6h) : bs on flexing the game....they do it for the $$league$$, not the hometown fans
Zero2Cool (7h) : I see what you did there Mucky
Zero2Cool (7h) : dammit. 3:25pm
Zero2Cool (7h) : Packers Vikings flexed to 3:35pm
Mucky Tundra (7h) : Upon receiving the news about Luke Musgrave, I immediately fell to the ground
Mucky Tundra (7h) : Yeah baby!
Zero2Cool (7h) : LUKE MUSGRAVE PLAYING TONIGHT~!~~~~WOWHOAAOHAOAA yah
Zero2Cool (8h) : I wanna kill new QB's ... blitz the crap out of them.
beast (8h) : Barry seemed to get too conservative against new QBs, Hafley doesn't have that issue
Zero2Cool (9h) : However, we seem to struggle vs new QB's
Zero2Cool (9h) : Should be moot point, cuz Packers should win tonight.
packerfanoutwest (9h) : ok I stand corrected
Zero2Cool (9h) : Ok, yes, you are right. I see that now how they get 7th
Zero2Cool (9h) : 5th - Packers win out, Vikings lose out. Maybe?
beast (9h) : Saying no to the 6th lock.
beast (9h) : No, with the Commanders beating the Eagles, Packers could have a good chance of 6th or 7th unless the win out
Zero2Cool (10h) : I think if Packers win, they are locked 6th with chance for 5th.
beast (10h) : But it doesn't matter, as the Packers win surely win one of their remaining games
beast (10h) : This is not complex, just someone doesn't want to believe reality
beast (10h) : We already have told you... if Packers lose all their games (they won't, but if they did), and Buccaneers and Falcons win all theirs
Zero2Cool (10h) : I posted it in that Packers and 1 seed thread
Zero2Cool (10h) : I literally just said it.
packerfanoutwest (10h) : show us a scenario where Pack don't get in? bet you can't
Zero2Cool (10h) : Falcons, Buccaneers would need to win final two games.
Zero2Cool (10h) : Yes, if they win one of three, they are lock. If they lose out, they can be eliminated.
packerfanoutwest (10h) : as I just said,,gtheyh are in no matter what
Zero2Cool (10h) : Packers should get in. I just hope it's not 7th seed. Feels dirty.
packerfanoutwest (10h) : If packers lose out, no matter what, they are in
packerfanoutwest (10h) : both teams can not male the playoffs....falcon hold the tie breaker
packerfanoutwest (10h) : if bucs win out they win their division
beast (10h) : Fine, Buccaneers and Falcons can get ahead of us
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