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Offline DakotaT  
#31 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 5:44:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Actually, Jesus didn't hate rich people. He didn't even hate wealth. He didn't hate anyone.

He merely pointed out that it is harder for the rich to get to heaven. Not because they are rich, but because their wealth convinces them they (and their wealth) are more important than they should be. Not because they are rich, because, being rich (with all the "comfort, power, and fame" that greater wealth confers) makes it much easier to commit idolatry of man and his works, and therefore easier to break the Great Commandment.

Wealth isn't the problem. It's what wealth does to us.



Yes, because he spent loads of time with the rich asshats of biblical times didn't he. Rolling Eyes Of course he hated them, he grew up in a working family struggling to get by.

Rich people who f*ck over poor people aren't going to heaven. Quit making Jesus into this all forgiving pussy! He was a man like any of us with the same feelings we have. Reread the Book of Amos and tell me I'm wrong.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#32 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 6:12:22 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Do you know why we started doing the firecracker/firework thing on the fourth of July?

I remember going to 4th of July fireworks when the last one was always a big multi-color explosion in the shape of the US flag.

Firecrackers are a lot older than the United States, but in this country they have long been connected to our politics. And not just to our politics, but to the way we constitute ourselves as a nation and why we constitute ourselves as a nation.

I'm not ascribing high motives to the person who threw these fireworks. My guess is he's probably another zombie American. However, it does seem to me that throwing things at the White House, especially something with a historic relationship with the essence of "US", might be a form of political "speech" we might be wise to have more of rather than less.



hahahahahaha the firecracker guy was probably some poor drunk or drugged out fool who didn't have a clue about Statism or not or whether Jesus gave a shit (a phrase you won't often hear hahaha) about the rich or not.

Lucky us, however, as the poor slob gave us this lovely thread to express at least a dozen different forms of enlightenment.

BTW, Jesus's earthly stepfather was an upper middle class entrepreneur - a building contractor. He dined and associated with the rich and famous of his locale and time, not to mention mid-level officers of the occupying army. His grave was donated by one of the political and financial elite. His apostles included, in addition to a tax collector, a group of highly productive entrepreneurs in the seafood sector. His mother was the first cousin of the wife of one of the primary religious leaders of the place/time. The guy He raised from the dead - the one whose sisters washed His feet with high priced ointment - was a wealthy land owner. He spoke parables that justify - indeed glorify - the capitalistic profit motive. He received celebrity treatment as He road into town - through the gate known as "the eye of the needle". Yeah, He loved poor people, but they certainly didn't have an exclusive on His love.
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Offline Wade  
#33 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 6:16:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Yes, because he spent loads of time with the rich asshats of biblical times didn't he. Rolling Eyes Of course he hated them, he grew up in a working family struggling to get by.

Rich people who feck over poor people aren't going to heaven. Quit making Jesus into this all forgiving pussy! He was a man like any of us with the same feelings we have. Reread the Book of Amos and tell me I'm wrong.


1. Never said the rich who eff poor people were going to heaven.

2. Jesus was a man, but the only man in human history who kept the law of the Old Testament.

3. I thought the Book of Amos was in the Old Testament.

4. I thought the point of Amos's prophecy was that idolatry was damning. Which is the whole point of that bit about rich men and eyes of needles. Rich men aren't going to go to hell because they sin big time in their treatment of the poor/less fortunate. Rich men are going to hell because they treat wealth as an idol and because they are blinded by their wealth/success into thinking *they* can determine their fate.

But more than that. The rich man's biggest problem isn't even his idolatry of wealth. Plenty of poor people treat wealth as an idol. (See any number of reality shows for evidence.)

The rich man's biggest problem is that he is a success by the standards of the world and he therefore is more resistant to the teaching that it isn't the standards of this world that determine our salvation. No worldly standard can do that. Rich man or poor, compassionate man or greedy man, we're all dust in the end. Unless we admit that all our wealth, all our success, all our good decisions, all our bad decisions are as nothing. Unless that we have one route to salvation, and one only.

Treating others like shit is not a bar to heaven. Treating others wonderfully is not a guarantee.

The only way to heaven is putting your faith in Him and, because you have done so, trying again and again to follow the Great Commandment even though you keep failing to do so.

I know you want to go all Old Testament and make Jesus into this fire and brimstone guy. But he's no more that than he is the airy-fairy Kumbaya singer. He doesn't forgive all. He only forgives those who repent in faith sufficient to His standards for faith (which only He knows). But if someone meets those standards, then he *is* all forgiving. Or, rather, he *has been* all forgiving -- that's the bit about Good Friday; if we have faith sufficient unto Him, then our sins *have* been washed away. Even if ours are the sins of the Pharisee or the filthy, exploitative rich.

I'm a human being. I like to think I'm saved. And I have these thoughts (far too often, as these too are violations of the Great Commandment) that hope certain other human beings are not. But the reality is it isn't my call. It's never going to be my call, or yours, or Billy Grahams, or anyone else's but His. And, ahem, thank God for that. Because neither I nor you nor any of the rest of us are either competent or worthy of such decisions.

I don't believe all will be saved come Judgmentd Day. But I believe Jesus wants all of us to be saved. And I believe he cries for all those who won't be. Including every one of the shameless idolatrous rich men who couldn't overcome their success at worldly things to get through the eye of the needle.
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Offline Wade  
#34 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 7:30:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
He spoke parables that justify - indeed glorify - the capitalistic profit motive.


Agree with the snipped parts pretty much, but I'm not sure about this.

If you're going to attach isms to Him, how do you reconcile the capitalist Jesus with that bit with the moneylenders in the temple?

Personally, I'm tempted to use that example as evidence that he was an anarchist, but that would be equally flawed.

Jesus wasn't any kind of -ist or -ian. Jesus wasn't even a Christian. Jesus was the Christ.

Isms and -ians are human constructs, every last one of them. Jesus was born of Mary, but he was not a human construct. He was, and is, Divine.

He was human, but he was not a humanist.

IMO, whenever I find myself tempted to put one of these broad kind of human labels on Jesus, I need to step back. I need to step back and remember that Great Commandment again. I need to remember that passage in Philippians about transcending human understanding again. I need to remember that it is not about creating a Jesus in one of my images. It's about surrendering power, including the power of my own arrogant knowledge, to Him in all things.

All those human isms we try to improve ourselves with. In the words of Solomon, they're all just vanity and chasing the wind.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#35 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2013 9:18:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Agree with the snipped parts pretty much, but I'm not sure about this.

If you're going to attach isms to Him, how do you reconcile the capitalist Jesus with that bit with the moneylenders in the temple?



I was referring to the parable of the talents.

I wouldn't say that I would attach any ism to Jesus, but this parable certainly does illustrate the concept of investing and making a profit.

The overturning the tables of the money changers (not lenders) has more to do with desecration of a holy place than anti-capitalism. It could also be construed as being against corrupt business practices.

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Offline DakotaT  
#36 Posted : Sunday, September 29, 2013 9:27:14 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
I was referring to the parable of the talents.

I wouldn't say that I would attach any ism to Jesus, but this parable certainly does illustrate the concept of investing and making a profit.

The overturning the tables of the money changers (not lenders) has more to do with desecration of a holy place than anti-capitalism. It could also be construed as being against corrupt business practices.



Isn't capitalism synonymous with corrupt business practices? Sugar coat it all you want, capitalism is the usury of many people for a small amount of people to become wealthy. If you actually think Jesus would support capitalism, you're absolutely insane. You've lost this argument, as has the GOP - but until the poor, intelligence challenged Tea People can be shown how brainwashed they've been - we'll just continue to play the game of status quo. After all, that's what people like you want isn't it?
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#37 Posted : Sunday, September 29, 2013 9:46:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Isn't capitalism synonymous with corrupt business practices? Sugar coat it all you want, capitalism is the usury of many people for a small amount of people to become wealthy. If you actually think Jesus would support capitalism, you're absolutely insane. You've lost this argument, as has the GOP - but until the poor, intelligence challenged Tea People can be shown how brainwashed they've been - we'll just continue to play the game of status quo. After all, that's what people like you want isn't it?


You actually would write something that off the wall? - "capitalism synonymous with corrupt business practices"? That's just idiotic. Providing goods and services for a price determined by the market, and either succeeding or failing depending on how the market perceives your quality and price - THAT translates to corrupt practices in your weird opinion?

Aside from trying to diagnose the intent of people doing business in a capitalist/free enterprise system, you have the clear fact that consumers have choices, and obviously they would opt to select the goods and services of whoever provides the best goods and services for the price. About the only opportunity for corruption would be false advertizing, and it doesn't take long before the market adjusts - exposing the falsehood and making the cheater fail.

I keep asking you to cite examples to the contrary, and you don't because you can't. Making a profit by itself simply is NOT corrupt - how could you be so idiotic to think it is?

And you actually would denigrate the STATUS QUO? Never in the history of mankind has the population - the WHOLE population ever had it as good as we have it, and Never in the history of mankind has the world's dominant power ever been so benevolent to poor and oppressed of the world as we are.

And Jesus actually PRACTICED capitalism (not to mention next generation wealth) working until age 30 for His earthly stepfather, the building contractor. He also associated with a group of entrepreneurs in the seafood industry, and He dined and hung out with the rich and famous of Jews in His day.

Edited by user Sunday, September 29, 2013 9:58:22 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline DakotaT  
#38 Posted : Sunday, September 29, 2013 10:06:27 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post


And you actually would denigrate the STATUS QUO? Never in the history of mankind has the population - the WHOLE population ever had it as good as we have it, and Never in the history of mankind has the world's dominant power ever been so benevolent to poor and oppressed of the world as we are.

And Jesus actually PRACTICED capitalism (not to mention next generation wealth) working until age 30 for His earthly stepfather, the building contractor. He also associated with a group of entrepreneurs in the seafood industry, and He dined and hung out with the rich and famous of Jews in His day.


And then he threw it all away and showed people actual right from wrong.

As for the Status Quo - lets just say we have a long to go so that we all enjoy it, not just the top 10 percent.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#39 Posted : Sunday, September 29, 2013 10:27:23 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
And then he threw it all away and showed people actual right from wrong.

As for the Status Quo - lets just say we have a long to go so that we all enjoy it, not just the top 10 percent.


I ask you AGAIN to cite some specifics - ANYTHING at all said by Jesus to support your weird idea that He hated achievers/rich/free enterprise/whatever. His association with entrepreneurs - the Apostles and rich elites - the Pharisees, and His teachings, including expounding on the profit motive - was AFTER His ministry began - the time you characterize as "throwing it all away".

As for the "top 10 percent thing", I have never been in the top half, much less 10 percent, and I have always enjoyed the wonderfulness of freedom, comfort, and security in America. The same is true for virtually everyone I know, and I venture to say, the huge majority that I don't know. Anybody who joins you in NOT enjoying all aspects of life in America needs to look inward to their own sick mind rather than whining about phantom problems.



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If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline DakotaT  
#40 Posted : Monday, September 30, 2013 7:56:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
I ask you AGAIN to cite some specifics - ANYTHING at all said by Jesus to support your weird idea that He hated achievers/rich/free enterprise/whatever. His association with entrepreneurs - the Apostles and rich elites - the Pharisees, and His teachings, including expounding on the profit motive - was AFTER His ministry began - the time you characterize as "throwing it all away".

As for the "top 10 percent thing", I have never been in the top half, much less 10 percent, and I have always enjoyed the wonderfulness of freedom, comfort, and security in America. The same is true for virtually everyone I know, and I venture to say, the huge majority that I don't know. Anybody who joins you in NOT enjoying all aspects of life in America needs to look inward to their own sick mind rather than whining about phantom problems.



Of course I can't quote what you ask, or would I try. I don't trust what has been shoved down our throats starting with the Council of Nicea - where they turned Jesus into this mythical character and not a man. Throw in the evil and corrupt Catholic church, and you have a lot of misguided people including yourself.

My wife and I are close to the top ten percent, and let me assure you, we enjoy our lives thoroughly. But I did not have to f*ck over anybody to get there, and I had to overcome tremendous obstacles for my successes. So basically, as I've told you many times over, you really don't know shit about me.
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