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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#16 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 7:57:13 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I credit Unions for this, and also the decline (my opinion) in parenting properly.


The former I agree; The latter is kinda a stretch hahahaha.

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Offline Pack93z  
#17 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 8:03:15 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post

One thing you said that concerns me - maybe because I used to be in the real estate business. It is NOT a bad thing that virtually all workers strive to be homeowners. Historically, and nowadays more than ever, owning a home is cheaper for the same quality level than renting. It seemed to me you were implying that striving for ownership was not a good thing.


It is not a bad thing to "strive to" own one.. but many that do shouldn't do to their financial situation or that they buy "too much" house and cannot afford it.

That is my view upon it.. even I a financial conservative think I probably extended to far, even though my house is modest and the land was owned for years. But I am a mostly a tightwad in my aging days, lol.
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Offline wpr  
#18 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 9:20:21 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I credit Unions for this, and also the decline (my opinion) in parenting properly.


when I worked in a factory (while in college) I saw the laziest people that I had ever met, to that point in my life. I worked in 3 different plants over the four years and saw the same mentality in different people. That was, "You can't fire me I am a union member and I will file a grievance and tie this up with the lawyers." That is not just the factory or blue collar workers, college professors, with tenor would express that same thing. Granted the professors would not sneak into the back warehouse and sleep during their shift like several blues did. They did not walk out the back door with merchandise or tools like many of my fellow workers did. They simply didn't not care to instruct the students to the best of their abilities. Many required the students to purchase books that they authored. (Some of them were the worst written and least instructive I have ever picked up.)

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Offline wpr  
#19 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 9:33:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
It is not a bad thing to "strive to" own one.. but many that do shouldn't do to their financial situation or that they buy "too much" house and cannot afford it.

That is my view upon it.. even I a financial conservative think I probably extended to far, even though my house is modest and the land was owned for years. But I am a mostly a tightwad in my aging days, lol.


Back in the late 80's my younger brother and I were leaving Peoria after a meeting and heading back home. We drove past homes were Caterpillar employees lived. I asked my brother what was different about these houses than the ones in our town. He couldn't see any difference. I pointed out that almost every home had 3 or more cars. While some homes in our town did, most of them didn't. Over 75% of the homes had boats, 4 wheelers, snowmobiles or campers as well.

I don't mind it if they have all those toys. They were right along the river and it is more than common to have such things. But my point is that a greater number of people in the stretch between Peoria and Henry,IL which is about 25 miles long, have an over abundance of toys than in other areas of Illinois at that time. The common factor was the Cat plant. Cat was still King in those days and most everyone worked for them.

If they had saved up and paid cash more power to them. Being in insurance it was my experience that the majority of them did not. Banks were more than willing in those days to loan money.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#20 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 9:59:06 AM(UTC)
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A lot of good points being made in this thread.

Yeah, when I was in real estate, I wish I had a commission for every buyer who failed to qualify because they wanted more house than the mortgage company said they had income for. And most who did get houses were at the upper limit.

Regarding toys, whether on credit or not, to me that is a sign of workers making good income. We would be wrong to begrudge them that just as it's wrong for Dakota to begrudge business owners healthy profits. Somebody else's good fortune has NO bad effect on one's own situation. That's my nice side talking hahahaha.

Now for my not so nice side: what I SHOULD have said regarding work ethic is that it is an oxymoron. Work is a damn four letter word, and there is nothing ethical about it. The relationship between employer and employee is ADVERSARIAL - the worker does the least and worst he can get away with for the most money he can squeeze out of the boss. Conversely, the boss works the employee's ass off for as little pay as he can get away with giving him. Of course, most people on both sides of that situation are too nice to stick the knife in to the hilt, but that's the nature of the relationship. It's the same with landlord/tenant, policy holder/insurance company, creditor/borrower, etc. Dakota talked about the "abomination of greed"; No - greed is the norm. A bunch of individuals acting in their own greedy self interest will result in maximization of the common good for everybody. That's the theory anyway hahahahaha.
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Offline wpr  
#21 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 12:12:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
A lot of good points being made in this thread.

Yeah, when I was in real estate, I wish I had a commission for every buyer who failed to qualify because they wanted more house than the mortgage company said they had income for. And most who did get houses were at the upper limit.

Regarding toys, whether on credit or not, to me that is a sign of workers making good income. We would be wrong to begrudge them that just as it's wrong for Dakota to begrudge business owners healthy profits. Somebody else's good fortune has NO bad effect on one's own situation. That's my nice side talking hahahaha.

Now for my not so nice side: what I SHOULD have said regarding work ethic is that it is an oxymoron. Work is a damn four letter word, and there is nothing ethical about it. The relationship between employer and employee is ADVERSARIAL - the worker does the least and worst he can get away with for the most money he can squeeze out of the boss. Conversely, the boss works the employee's ass off for as little pay as he can get away with giving him. Of course, most people on both sides of that situation are too nice to stick the knife in to the hilt, but that's the nature of the relationship. It's the same with landlord/tenant, policy holder/insurance company, creditor/borrower, etc. Dakota talked about the "abomination of greed"; No - greed is the norm. A bunch of individuals acting in their own greedy self interest will result in maximization of the common good for everybody. That's the theory anyway hahahahaha.


I don't begrudge someone buying pretty toys. It doesn't make sense to buying everything you own on credit. It may show that a person has a good income but until the collapse most small loans were made irregardless of income. Your name was what got you the loan more than the income.

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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#22 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 12:44:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
I don't begrudge someone buying pretty toys. It doesn't make sense to buying everything you own on credit. It may show that a person has a good income but until the collapse most small loans were made irregardless of income. Your name was what got you the loan more than the income.



You're LEAPING to the assumption that the items on credit get paid for hahahaha. Vehicles as a rule, can be repossessed, but unsecured credit? Let the creditor beware!

I'm anxious to see the reaction of Dakota to this - will the champion of Joe Sixpack get all pious and self-righteous like he does about cheating (or even complaining) on taxes? Or will he come out in favor of sticking it to the rich banker/creditor class?

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Offline DakotaT  
#23 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 1:15:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
You're LEAPING to the assumption that the items on credit get paid for hahahaha. Vehicles as a rule, can be repossessed, but unsecured credit? Let the creditor beware!

I'm anxious to see the reaction of Dakota to this - will the champion of Joe Sixpack get all pious and self-righteous like he does about cheating (or even complaining) on taxes? Or will he come out in favor of sticking it to the rich banker/creditor class?



Since your baiting, the only debt a person should carry is his mortgage and very low interest school loans. Everything else a person should weigh out it being a need or want.

Sticking it to the banker by defaulting on a loan or filing bankruptcy is unrighteous to say the least. The only real legitimate reason for bankruptcy is huge medical debt do to something tragic. I understand that a lot of people have lost jobs and had to default on mortgages and vehicles, but how far did they extend themselves to the slavery of debt? I've always lived by a simple rule that states that you should have 6 months worth of salary in a savings account to cover your debts should you lose your job.

Yeah Texas, the bank doesn't make a whole lot off me. I usually pay off loans well before they are due.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#24 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 1:31:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Since your baiting, the only debt a person should carry is his mortgage and very low interest school loans. Everything else a person should weigh out it being a need or want.

Sticking it to the banker by defaulting on a loan or filing bankruptcy is unrighteous to say the least. The only real legitimate reason for bankruptcy is huge medical debt do to something tragic. I understand that a lot of people have lost jobs and had to default on mortgages and vehicles, but how far did they extend themselves to the slavery of debt? I've always lived by a simple rule that states that you should have 6 months worth of salary in a savings account to cover your debts should you lose your job.

Yeah Texas, the bank doesn't make a whole lot off me. I usually pay off loans well before they are due.


OK I guess that tells me what I want to know hahahaha. What you like to rant and whine about - the "rich", the creditor class, the businesses who finance debt, etc. - all those "evil" people and institutions you claim to hate so much, I LIVE what you rant about. Since the early 80s, I have been abusing credit to the best extent I could - I mean intentionally not paying unsecured debt. If you're shocked or want to think of me as "unrighteous", fine, but I'm DOING what you're only talking or fantasizing about - a sharp stick in the eye of the "rich".

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Offline DakotaT  
#25 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 1:50:05 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
OK I guess that tells me what I want to know hahahaha. What you like to rant and whine about - the "rich", the creditor class, the businesses who finance debt, etc. - all those "evil" people and institutions you claim to hate so much, I LIVE what you rant about. Since the early 80s, I have been abusing credit to the best extent I could - I mean intentionally not paying unsecured debt. If you're shocked or want to think of me as "unrighteous", fine, but I'm DOING what you're only talking or fantasizing about - a sharp stick in the eye of the "rich".



Oh aren't you the rebel? I want to live to see the day those evil people are beheaded. Your little dine and dash routine is like a little pimple on their ass. Rolling Eyes I wouldn't do what you do because I have character. Isn't your little thieving one of the top ten don'ts of our Lord?
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Online Rockmolder  
#26 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 3:24:16 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
OK I guess that tells me what I want to know hahahaha. What you like to rant and whine about - the "rich", the creditor class, the businesses who finance debt, etc. - all those "evil" people and institutions you claim to hate so much, I LIVE what you rant about. Since the early 80s, I have been abusing credit to the best extent I could - I mean intentionally not paying unsecured debt. If you're shocked or want to think of me as "unrighteous", fine, but I'm DOING what you're only talking or fantasizing about - a sharp stick in the eye of the "rich".



That's quite a douchebaggy way to go about things, but it does show how broken the system is/was.

Like Dakota said, though, that has little to do with standing up for those who need it and more with questionable ethics. If anything, I'd go a step further and make it clear that, especially the lower/middle class, has absolutely no reason to work themselves into debt. A mortgage on a house, that's the only one I get.

Medical expenses to the point where you have to throw yourself into debt should be obsolete, since it's the most obvious thing to insure yourself against, but that's another discussion.

Education should be subsidised, as well. And not only for the ones who are athletically gifted or whatever. But again, that's a different discussion I'm not jumping into.

And lastly, adding onto what Pack93z said, when looking at houses, everyone there seems to life well above his/her means. It appears to be perfectly normal for a couple of 21 year old college drop-outs, living on a factory worker income, to get the mortgage through for a 4-bedroom, 2 bathroom house. That's great when you just keep trading up and keep pushing the consequences of your mortgage further and further into the future, but you'd reckon people would've learned from this ill-adviced structure the first time.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#27 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 7:43:31 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
That's quite a douchebaggy way to go about things, but it does show how broken the system is/was.

Like Dakota said, though, that has little to do with standing up for those who need it and more with questionable ethics. If anything, I'd go a step further and make it clear that, especially the lower/middle class, has absolutely no reason to work themselves into debt. A mortgage on a house, that's the only one I get.



In reply to both your post and Dakota's, either those "rich" bastards are evil or they aren't - make up your mind. If they are the kind of asshole Dakota says, then any small dent in their bottom line is a good thing - morally justified. Conversely, if Dakota's more recent take on things is true - "Thou shalt not cheat the cheaters", then there must be a particle of chance that some of them are NOT evil. I'm not gonna worry about that - I'm just gonna do all I can get away with, and feel good about it. As for WWJD, I don't know, maybe something similar to overturning the tables of the money changers in the Temple. Who say ANYTHING about standing up for those who need it. It's all about nipping at the heels of the establishment types. A mortgage on a house is the one thing you DON'T default on because it can get foreclosed. Ditto that for secured debt on vehicles or other repossessable items.

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Offline DakotaT  
#28 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 8:00:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
In reply to both your post and Dakota's, either those "rich" bastards are evil or they aren't - make up your mind. If they are the kind of asshole Dakota says, then any small dent in their bottom line is a good thing - morally justified. Conversely, if Dakota's more recent take on things is true - "Thou shalt not cheat the cheaters", then there must be a particle of chance that some of them are NOT evil. I'm not gonna worry about that - I'm just gonna do all I can get away with, and feel good about it. As for WWJD, I don't know, maybe something similar to overturning the tables of the money changers in the Temple. Who say ANYTHING about standing up for those who need it. It's all about nipping at the heels of the establishment types. A mortgage on a house is the one thing you DON'T default on because it can get foreclosed. Ditto that for secured debt on vehicles or other repossessable items.



You're too obtuse to even know what you do is wrong? Cheating a cheater doesn't make your act right, well maybe "right" but certainly not correct. Raping a prostitute is still rape. If you don't get these simple concepts - what makes you think anybody should give you any credibility on complex subjects. Yeah, Texadumbass, people like me really do exist. I don't cheat on my wife, my taxes, and I don't buy shit I can't afford to own. Call me pious all you want to, but I walk tall and can look anybody square in the eye.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#29 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 9:54:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
You're too obtuse to even know what you do is wrong? Cheating a cheater doesn't make your act right, well maybe "right" but certainly not correct. Raping a prostitute is still rape. If you don't get these simple concepts - what makes you think anybody should give you any credibility on complex subjects. Yeah, Texadumbass, people like me really do exist. I don't cheat on my wife, my taxes, and I don't buy shit I can't afford to own. Call me pious all you want to, but I walk tall and can look anybody square in the eye.


If you're sincerely pious, I applaud you for it too - and you very well may be. However, so MUCH of what you post is based on at best, honest but dense contradiction, and at worst, disingenuous bullshit. In other words, you're just plain WRONG virtually all the time for reasons which are totally unclear.

Frankly, I don't give a damn whether my behavior is considered "right" or "correct" or whatever. Hell yeah, you got the moral high ground as well as the majority opinion on that front. All I say is I am CONSISTENT - Not a walking talking contradiction like you. Of course, people like you exist; Most of them are Tea Partiers, are America-loving Americans, would NEVER be mistaken because of their words for leftists, probably would be too courteous and non-combative to even post in a forum like this. What they WOULD be is the exact kind of people you spew so much hate about - is it a coincidence that you are saturated with sick reverse ethnocentricity? I don't think so.

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Offline DakotaT  
#30 Posted : Tuesday, June 25, 2013 5:45:01 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
If you're sincerely pious, I applaud you for it too - and you very well may be. However, so MUCH of what you post is based on at best, honest but dense contradiction, and at worst, disingenuous bullshit. In other words, you're just plain WRONG virtually all the time for reasons which are totally unclear.

Frankly, I don't give a damn whether my behavior is considered "right" or "correct" or whatever. Hell yeah, you got the moral high ground as well as the majority opinion on that front. All I say is I am CONSISTENT - Not a walking talking contradiction like you. Of course, people like you exist; Most of them are Tea Partiers, are America-loving Americans, would NEVER be mistaken because of their words for leftists, probably would be too courteous and non-combative to even post in a forum like this. What they WOULD be is the exact kind of people you spew so much hate about - is it a coincidence that you are saturated with sick reverse ethnocentricity? I don't think so.



You should probably work on yourself a lot more before you need to worry about me or thinking you know anything about me. Having a good life in this country is about work and dedication to set goals, not finding all the short cuts cause a person lacks a spine, character, or work ethic.

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