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Offline Zero2Cool  
#1 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 5:33:32 AM(UTC)
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This may have to be moved, lol, but, what is the Patriot Act mean to you? I've heard that the phrase "Patriot Act" is quite misleading to it's actual intentions and implementation.

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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#2 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 7:25:19 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
This may have to be moved, lol, but, what is the Patriot Act mean to you? I've heard that the phrase "Patriot Act" is quite misleading to it's actual intentions and implementation.


Ah ....... Pure Politics - RED MEAT!!! the thread I mean, not the Patriot Act.

I think I represent the Good Normal America-Loving American point of view, although undoubtedly in this forum, we will see a majority with the loony Libertarian point of view. The Patriot Act may have been a snap reaction to 9/11, but it was needed, and it has served America well. The A Number 1 top priority is NOT having our citizens mass murdered. That should be indisputable, although we likely will get a lot of disputin' of it. To those who say the threat of a terrorist event is exaggerated, especially one with more advanced weaponry than 9/11, I say Two things: 1. It only has to happen once to reek unthinkable horrors on this country, and 2. The thing that is EXAGGERATED is the counter-argument - that a bunch of megalomaniacs are out to grab our freedoms from us, and THAT is more important than life itself. The obvious counter to that counter to that counter is that the terrorist event which they so casually risk would surely destroy the exact freedoms they are so paranoid about losing.

We covered a lot of this ground in the other thread(s), but it is important enough to cover again. This makes all of the social/moral issues, and even the economic issues pale in comparison.

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Offline Wade  
#3 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 1:35:40 PM(UTC)
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Good topi
I'm too worn out from dealing with this back to type much more than some random thoughts.

1. It illustrates how legislation built from fear is almost always a bad idea.

2. It illustrates that the American Experiment that Tocqueville was so impressed with may well be over.

3. The only significant difference between having a Department of Homeland Security and having a Committee on Public Safety is that the former hasn't the power of the guillotine.

4. Yet.

5. The parallels between America of 2011-2013 are eerily similar to France of 1789 and 1848.

6. The TSA has not made air travel safer.

7. Technically I'm a loony anarchist, not a loony libertarian.

8. Interesting that the Patriot Act didn't prevent the Boston massacre, isn't it.

9. At least most people know where Guatanamo Bay is now. Now all we need to do is get them to understand a bit of the history of the place and the island its a part of.

10. The fact of the Patriot Act's existence, and Americans' willingness to accept it is pretty good evidence of the failure of historical education for the last few generations.
None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#4 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 2:51:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Good topi
I'm too worn out from dealing with this back to type much more than some random thoughts.

1. It illustrates how legislation built from fear is almost always a bad idea.

2. It illustrates that the American Experiment that Tocqueville was so impressed with may well be over.

3. The only significant difference between having a Department of Homeland Security and having a Committee on Public Safety is that the former hasn't the power of the guillotine.

4. Yet.

5. The parallels between America of 2011-2013 are eerily similar to France of 1789 and 1848.

6. The TSA has not made air travel safer.

7. Technically I'm a loony anarchist, not a loony libertarian.

8. Interesting that the Patriot Act didn't prevent the Boston massacre, isn't it.

9. At least most people know where Guatanamo Bay is now. Now all we need to do is get them to understand a bit of the history of the place and the island its a part of.

10. The fact of the Patriot Act's existence, and Americans' willingness to accept it is pretty good evidence of the failure of historical education for the last few generations.


1. If you lose a big game by oh ....... a running QB for example, you take extraordinary measures to defense that sort of thing, right? Life imitates football.

2. Did I mention ....... expect exaggeration in the counter-argument?

3. see number 2.

4. It did prevent recidivism hahahaha.

5. Forgive my historical ignorance or forgetfulness, but what mass murdering event equivalent to 9/11 led to the French Revolution? And what the hell happened in 1848 - other than Wisconsin becoming a state?

6. How many buildings have airliners slammed into since it began?

7. ooooh, a major distinction hahaha. Anyway, Wade, I'd hardly call you loony. Paranoid, yes. Capable of loony responses cloaked in sophistication, yes, but loony? Never.

8. I liken the Boston thing to a booster shot. The lessons of 9/11 were maybe beginning to wear off - the ignoring of the warning from Russia, etc. Arguably, the Patriot Act did make catching the Muslim bastards quicker and easier, and thus prevent the other bombings they had planned.

9. What I know of the history of Guantanamo is it was that bastion we refused to give up when Cuba went Communist - a flicker of silver lining in a dark cloud of recent history. Did you have some other historical context in mind?

10. Do you have any idea how ELITIST that sounds? "Those dumb boobs who prefer to not get killed just aren't getting our enlightened message about how they should be more concerned about their freedom than their LIFE".

Edited by user Monday, June 17, 2013 3:07:06 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
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Offline dfosterf  
#5 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 3:09:24 PM(UTC)
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I wanna go fishin' with Wade, Shawn, Jeremy, and Texas.

That would be a good fishing trip.

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damn skippy I'm an owner. I currently own a full .00001924537805515393 % of the Green Bay Packers.



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Offline Wade  
#6 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 4:09:07 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
1. If you lose a big game by oh ....... a running QB for example, you take extraordinary measures to defense that sort of thing, right? Life imitates football.

2. Did I mention ....... expect exaggeration in the counter-argument?

3. see number 2.

4. It did prevent recidivism hahahaha.

5. Forgive my historical ignorance or forgetfulness, but what mass murdering event equivalent to 9/11 led to the French Revolution? And what the hell happened in 1848 - other than Wisconsin becoming a state?

6. How many buildings have airliners slammed into since it began?

7. ooooh, a major distinction hahaha. Anyway, Wade, I'd hardly call you loony. Paranoid, yes. Capable of loony responses cloaked in sophistication, yes, but loony? Never.

8. I liken the Boston thing to a booster shot. The lessons of 9/11 were maybe beginning to wear off - the ignoring of the warning from Russia, etc. Arguably, the Patriot Act did make catching the Muslim bastards quicker and easier, and thus prevent the other bombings they had planned.

9. What I know of the history of Guantanamo is it was that bastion we refused to give up when Cuba went Communist - a flicker of silver lining in a dark cloud of recent history. Did you have some other historical context in mind?

10. Do you have any idea how ELITIST that sounds? "Those dumb boobs who prefer to not get killed just aren't getting our enlightened message about how they should be more concerned about their freedom than their LIFE".



1. I think looking at trade in terms of winners and losers (a la sports games) is a bad idea. But given that you are a mercantilist, I'm not surprised at this.

5. I wasn't speaking of specific event parallels. I was speaking of the "patterns of history", i.e., the fact that,like peasants and other "non-aristocrats" c. 1789 (storming of Bastille, bread riots, CPS originally, etc etc), people in America today tend to look at the state as the solution to problems rather than a necessary evil to be limited a la the American founders. And that is what led to the CPS -- Robispierre didn't just "take power" -- he had a real "popular mandate." His illustration of Acton's dictum ("power corrupts...") came later.
1848 was a year of revolution and potential revolution throughout Europe (France, Hungary, German States, Denmark, Austrian Habsburgs, Switzerland, Italy, Galicia/Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Belgium. Even England had to deal with pretty severe Chartist unrest). It was also the year that The Communist Manifesto was first published (Marx definitely had great timing). You think there is "instability" today. Look at 1848. Now *that* was a scary time.
And it spread two of the worst ideas in modern (if not human) history, nationalism and socialism/communistm.
I'd rather live today, fear of NBCs notwithstanding. Easy.

10. You misunderstood me here, I think. I was indicting educators and the education system, not those who didn't listen to their teachers.
None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline Wade  
#7 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 4:12:58 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dfosterf Go to Quoted Post
I wanna go fishin' with Wade, Shawn, Jeremy, and Texas.

That would be a good fishing trip.



Of course, with all the shouting, we probably wouldn't catch many fish. (Or could we use grenades as depth charges?)

None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline dfosterf  
#8 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 4:35:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Of course, with all the shouting, we probably wouldn't catch many fish. (Or could we use grenades as depth charges?)



Me, you and Shawn would catch all the fish. Jeremy would catch all the hell. Texas would have the time of his life, lol.

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damn skippy I'm an owner. I currently own a full .00001924537805515393 % of the Green Bay Packers.



Offline texaspackerbacker  
#9 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 8:04:07 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Of course, with all the shouting, we probably wouldn't catch many fish. (Or could we use grenades as depth charges?)



I haven't been fishing since I was a kid or teenager with my dad - bullheads and northerns in the ditches of Horicon Marsh and ice fishing on Lake Monona. The first time I ever heard of using grenades that way was from my Arabic teacher at Defense Language Institute, Presidio Monterey, California. I guess it's a Muslim thing hahahaha.

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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#10 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 8:20:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
1. I think looking at trade in terms of winners and losers (a la sports games) is a bad idea. But given that you are a mercantilist, I'm not surprised at this.

5. I wasn't speaking of specific event parallels. I was speaking of the "patterns of history", i.e., the fact that,like peasants and other "non-aristocrats" c. 1789 (storming of Bastille, bread riots, CPS originally, etc etc), people in America today tend to look at the state as the solution to problems rather than a necessary evil to be limited a la the American founders. And that is what led to the CPS -- Robispierre didn't just "take power" -- he had a real "popular mandate." His illustration of Acton's dictum ("power corrupts...") came later.
1848 was a year of revolution and potential revolution throughout Europe (France, Hungary, German States, Denmark, Austrian Habsburgs, Switzerland, Italy, Galicia/Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Belgium. Even England had to deal with pretty severe Chartist unrest). It was also the year that The Communist Manifesto was first published (Marx definitely had great timing). You think there is "instability" today. Look at 1848. Now *that* was a scary time.
And it spread two of the worst ideas in modern (if not human) history, nationalism and socialism/communistm.
I'd rather live today, fear of NBCs notwithstanding. Easy.

10. You misunderstood me here, I think. I was indicting educators and the education system, not those who didn't listen to their teachers.


1. You lost me there, Wade. WHAT does the Patriot Act have to do with TRADE? Did I ever say I was a Mercantilist? The thing about the dollar being the reserve currency and the world basically paying tribute to us? I don't think that is exactly classic Mercantilism. Other than that, I'm kinda half-heartedly for free trade and against tariffs - but what does THAT have to do with the topic at hand?

10. So the educators didn't do a good enough job of propagandizing students to YOUR point of view - they still care more about their LIVES than things like freedom, due process, etc.? It still smacks of ELITISM to me - YOU know better than the "dumbass majority" who think differently.

5. It's entirely possible we could have a "tyranny of the majority" which basically the French Revolution was, and it could fit neatly within the Constitution if framed correctly. You know what could really grease the wheels to make that sort of thing possible, though? A Constitutional Convention - as YOU advocate. What have you got against NATIONALISM? I like it. It is an essential element of ethnocentricity - one of may favorite doctrines.
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Offline Rockmolder  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 5:49:10 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
6. How many buildings have airliners slammed into since it began?


Airliners slamming into buildings being a common thing before the Patriot Act.
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Offline Wade  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:58:41 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post


10. So the educators didn't do a good enough job of propagandizing students to YOUR point of view - they still care more about their LIVES than things like freedom, due process, etc.? It still smacks of ELITISM to me - YOU know better than the "dumbass majority" who think differently.


Of course. I am a superior life form, after all.

Big Grin

Edited by user Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:33:02 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Remove incorrect attribution.

None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:07:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
Airliners slamming into buildings being a common thing before the Patriot Act.


1 - 2 - 3 with 3,000 + killed - that's not common enough? And of course, there's the factor of a lot worse weaponry than what hit us in 9/11.

I expect lunacy in here from these Libertarian/anarchist/whatever types who wouldn't know the meaning of priority if it bit them in the ass hahahaha, but fortunately, there is a population out there that allows common sense to be the rule - loss of life AND loss of freedom trumps mere loss of freedom - which in point of fact, isn't even happening. Who among us - REALISTICALLY - not letting your paranoia run wild, feels any less free because of the TSA or any other provisions of the Patriot Act? I can honestly say, I have NOT been affected one iota - but then I don't have a secret drug stash or a marijuana crop in the backyard or a thriving criminal enterprise hahahaha.

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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:10:54 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post


10. So the educators didn't do a good enough job of propagandizing students to YOUR point of view - they still care more about their LIVES than things like freedom, due process, etc.? It still smacks of ELITISM to me - YOU know better than the "dumbass majority" who think differently.

Of course. I am a superior life form, after all.

Big Grin





YOU just might be hahahaha ............ but you're still W R O N G !


ok, I give up, how do I get my words out of the square?
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Offline DakotaT  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:20:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dfosterf Go to Quoted Post
I wanna go fishin' with Wade, Shawn, Jeremy, and Texas.

That would be a good fishing trip.



Yeah, you millionaires should call your buddy Mittens to charter his yacht for a weekend. Rolling On The Floor Laughing
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