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Offline Formo  
#31 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:16:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 4PackGirl Go to Quoted Post
ok, let me simplify this entire issue with one simple question...

if zimmermann had listened to law enforcement he was speaking to on his phone who told him they were on their way & that he didn't need to continue following the kid, would the kid be dead?

pretty damn simple, right?

i don't wanna hear squat about this kids past or even the zimmermann dude's past, who's black, who's white, who's hispanic, & i sure as hell don't care what jesse jackson or al sharpton think either.

any person walking down the street doing nothing to you or your personal property does not deserve to be shot - PERIOD!!
it amazes me that some of you actually think this is all good, cool, & fine. WTF?!? i don't give two shits what the damn florida law says either - if nothing else, this guy was absolutely stalking & harassing this kid. convict his ass on that bare minimum.



A 911 operator isn't a law enforcement officer. And here's the transcript of the call:

http://www.documentcloud...ranscript-zimmerman.html

He was following him BEFORE the operator tells him that there's no need for it. And at that point, Zimmerman acknowledges it and sounds as if he lost the kid at that point.

Again, the kid wasn't shot because he was walking down the street. You are reading into this too much. He was shot because he was on top of Zimmerman (evidence proves this). What's at question here is what caused the altercation.

BTW, he was a Neighborhood Watch person. Which means he 'patrols' his streets looking for suspicious behavior and then calls them in. He felt the kid (not from the neighborhood, which had some break-ins recently, looking at the houses) was a bit suspicious.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#32 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:21:36 PM(UTC)
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I'm cool with everything, until he gets out of his vehicle. Right there, he loses all right to claim self defense.

Edit, after reading the transcript, even more convinced the adult is in the wrong and had no business at all getting out of his vehicle. The dispatcher said they didn't need him to follow him. Yet, somehow after getting off the phone the adult and kid are together in a scuffle and the kid dies?

The adult did the right thing in reporting a suspicious person. I don't think anyone will question that. The problem I have is the adult was told it was not needed for him to follow the kid. Yet, the adult ends up getting punched in the face and kills the kid.

Edited by user Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:32:28 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified


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Offline Formo  
#33 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:29:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I think this comment is skipping the chain of events. If they are both walking along and the kid pops the adult in the nose, yes, I agree with the right to self defense on the part of the adult.

The kid is walking. The adult is following him in his vehicle. At this point, I ask myself, why does one follow someone and why? When are those intentions ever for the good?


Zimmerman is a Neighborhood Watch volunteer. It's what they do. What he did there was NOT illegal. And I'm willing to bet that most Neighborhood Watch volunteers do the same thing.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
If I'm that kid (and I've been in a similar situation, once on foot, once in my car) I am in fear of my own personal safety.


No doubt. But you kinda put yourself in that situation when you are out and about at night.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
We do know that if the adult never leaves his vehicle, there is no altercation, would you agree? The adult had essentially two weapons, his car and gun. The kid has what to defend himself? Skittles? Ice Tea? True, the adult has NO CLUE what the kid has ... which makes me ask the next question ... why get out of your vehicle at all when you've already contacted the authorities?


It sounded to me like he was already out of his car following the kid when told by the 911 operator that there was no need for him to follow him. I agree, he should have at least stayed in his SUV and followed him that way.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I'm simply not buying the adult claiming self defense when HE initiated the contact by following the kid and also getting out of his vehicle.


He wasn't just following a kid, though. He was following a suspicious person. Again, we agree on the getting out of the car bit, though.
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Offline Formo  
#34 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:31:39 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I'm cool with everything, until he gets out of his vehicle. Right there, he loses all right to claim self defense.


I disagree. He doesn't lose is right to claim self-defense. What if he just asked the kid "Hey, what are you doing out here?" and gets popped in the nose and attacked (remember the evidence)? I'm not saying that happened, I'm saying the line you draw isn't sufficient.
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Offline 4PackGirl  
#35 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:52:25 PM(UTC)
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a 911 operator said it - she's in direct contact with law enforcement - stop arguing semantics.

i don't give a rat's ass if he's the king of the damn block - he had NO right to shoot another person. he was an overzealous wannabe who took the law into his own hands, acted a fool, & killed someone. how is that ok? if a law enforcement officer had done this, how would you feel then? would an officer have been justified in killing this kid or would you be all up in arms because we live in a 'police state'?

i live in an avid hunting community, my neighborhood is comprised of old men & their wives with alot of guns.
we watch each others houses, look out for each other, & make sure nobody suspicious is around. WITHOUT GUNS!!!
it's one thing to look out for each other, it's quite another to actively stalk/harass someone while you are carrying a weapon & then taking it upon yourself, even with law enforcement coming, to shoot another human being.

an innocent young man is dead...for no reason other than pure & complete stupidity.

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#36 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 2:01:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Formo Go to Quoted Post
I disagree. He doesn't lose his right to claim self-defense. What if he just asked the kid "Hey, what are you doing out here?" and gets popped in the nose and attacked (remember the evidence)? I'm not saying that happened, I'm saying the line you draw isn't sufficient.


He does lose his right to claim self defense the second he stepped out of his vehicle AFTER following the kid around. He is a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, not a trained officer. He became the aggressor the second he stepped out of the vehicle, thus, removing any claim of self defense.

Perception.
Adult sees the kid kid as a suspicious person.
Kid sees adult as a threat to his safety.

As I said, I know the adult was doing his "responsibility" by reporting a suspicious person, I'm cool with that. I'm even fine with him tailing the kid until police arrived. But you can't follow some kid around, suspicious person or not, with a car, then get out of the car, get punched and shoot them and claim self defense.


Try to keep this fact in mind ... if he does not get out of his car, he does NOT get popped in the nose! Remember the evidence?

Your obtuse attitude to human nature of self preservation is not sufficient. So there! :P

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#37 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 2:02:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 4PackGirl Go to Quoted Post
a 911 operator said it - she's in direct contact with law enforcement - stop arguing semantics.

i don't give a rat's ass if he's the king of the damn block - he had NO right to shoot another person. he was an overzealous wannabe who took the law into his own hands, acted a fool, & killed someone. how is that ok? if a law enforcement officer had done this, how would you feel then? would an officer have been justified in killing this kid or would you be all up in arms because we live in a 'police state'?

i live in an avid hunting community, my neighborhood is comprised of old men & their wives with alot of guns.
we watch each others houses, look out for each other, & make sure nobody suspicious is around. WITHOUT GUNS!!!
it's one thing to look out for each other, it's quite another to actively stalk/harass someone while you are carrying a weapon & then taking it upon yourself, even with law enforcement coming, to shoot another human being.

an innocent young man is dead...for no reason other than pure & complete stupidity.


I bet if the adult wasn't carrying the gun, he doesn't get out of his vehicle at all.

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#38 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 2:13:22 PM(UTC)
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Travon Martin was six three and about 140lbs.

http://www.cnn.com/video...ayvon-martin-witness.cnn

The adult says he was returning to his vehicle after he lost him when the kid approached him and exchanged words and the kid punched him in the nose and hit him over and over.

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Offline Formo  
#39 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 7:15:05 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 4PackGirl Go to Quoted Post
a 911 operator said it - she's in direct contact with law enforcement - stop arguing semantics.


This is not semantics. This is actually pertinent information.

Originally Posted by: 4PackGirl Go to Quoted Post
i don't give a rat's ass if he's the king of the damn block - he had NO right to shoot another person. he was an overzealous wannabe who took the law into his own hands, acted a fool, & killed someone. how is that ok? if a law enforcement officer had done this, how would you feel then? would an officer have been justified in killing this kid or would you be all up in arms because we live in a 'police state'?


I'm not defending Zimmerman so much as I am saying this is not the case of an innocent kid gets murdered because he's black. Which was and is exactly the main stream media has been trumpeting.

Originally Posted by: 4PackGirl Go to Quoted Post
i live in an avid hunting community, my neighborhood is comprised of old men & their wives with alot of guns.
we watch each others houses, look out for each other, & make sure nobody suspicious is around. WITHOUT GUNS!!!
it's one thing to look out for each other, it's quite another to actively stalk/harass someone while you are carrying a weapon & then taking it upon yourself, even with law enforcement coming, to shoot another human being.


So, he shot the kid, in your eyes, because he was suspicious? Did you miss the part where the kid was mounted on Zimmerman bouncing his head off the ground?

Originally Posted by: 4PackGirl Go to Quoted Post
an innocent young man is dead...for no reason other than pure & complete stupidity.



Agreed.
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Offline Formo  
#40 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 7:16:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
He does lose his right to claim self defense the second he stepped out of his vehicle AFTER following the kid around. He is a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, not a trained officer. He became the aggressor the second he stepped out of the vehicle, thus, removing any claim of self defense.

Perception.
Adult sees the kid kid as a suspicious person.
Kid sees adult as a threat to his safety.

As I said, I know the adult was doing his "responsibility" by reporting a suspicious person, I'm cool with that. I'm even fine with him tailing the kid until police arrived. But you can't follow some kid around, suspicious person or not, with a car, then get out of the car, get punched and shoot them and claim self defense.


Try to keep this fact in mind ... if he does not get out of his car, he does NOT get popped in the nose! Remember the evidence?

Your obtuse attitude to human nature of self preservation is not sufficient. So there! :P


I'll remember this the next time someone steps out of their vehicle when arriving, unwanted, at my place of living. I'll be sure to point to your logic for my excuse of popping them in the nose.

You are painting with too broad of a brush.
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Offline Cheesey  
#41 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 7:21:52 PM(UTC)
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If the kid WAS attacking the guy, then Zimmerman had every right to use whatever he had to defend himself.

I think we all agree it's a sad thing that happened. But to just blame Zimmerman is wrong too.
If someone started beating me, you better believe i'd do whatever i could to stop it.
Does that mean i'd like to shoot someone? NO!!!
But if it's me or him, i'll do what i can to make sure it's not me.
Like the old saying goes, i'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6.
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Offline Porforis  
#42 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 8:20:30 PM(UTC)
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I think we're all too eager to defend one party or the other. Zimmerman was overzealous. Trayvon made mistakes too. When people make violent mistakes, sometimes people get killed. Let's stop pretending that this was cold blooded murder, or completely justifiable.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

If anybody is willing to either convict someone or exonerate them based on this crappy, conflicting evidence that has come out so far, I pray to god they never sit on a jury. Can't we all calm the hell down, and let the facts come out before screaming that someone should be thrown in jail or that he's innocent?

Edited by user Tuesday, March 27, 2012 8:49:07 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Formo  
#43 Posted : Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:08:26 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
I think we're all too eager to defend one party or the other. Zimmerman was overzealous. Trayvon made mistakes too. When people make violent mistakes, sometimes people get killed. Let's stop pretending that this was cold blooded murder, or completely justifiable.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

If anybody is willing to either convict someone or exonerate them based on this crappy, conflicting evidence that has come out so far, I pray to god they never sit on a jury. Can't we all calm the hell down, and let the facts come out before screaming that someone should be thrown in jail or that he's innocent?


Exactly. Applause
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#44 Posted : Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:23:03 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
I think we're all too eager to defend one party or the other. Zimmerman was overzealous. Trayvon made mistakes too. When people make violent mistakes, sometimes people get killed. Let's stop pretending that this was cold blooded murder, or completely justifiable.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

If anybody is willing to either convict someone or exonerate them based on this crappy, conflicting evidence that has come out so far, I pray to god they never sit on a jury. Can't we all calm the hell down, and let the facts come out before screaming that someone should be thrown in jail or that he's innocent?


I think what most of us are wanting is the truth, more than anything. I don't care for those who are trying to place the race card at all. I don't think the issue here is about race. I don't think anyone is pretending this was cold blooded murder either. Thanks for the hyperbole, as if Formo wasn't doing well enough on his own.

As I've said several times now, the adult is wrong for getting out of the vehicle. He was right to call in a suspicious person. He was, in my opinion, right for following the kid until police arrived (my rationale is if the kid did do something wrong, by 'handshaking' the kid to the police, justice is more likely brought forth).

If it is true that the adult was walking back to his vehicle and THEN the kid approaches him, exchanged words and punches him ... yes, indeed self defense is rightfully claimed by the adult.

If it is true that the adult kept driving around after the dispatcher said it wasn't needed to follow him, found the kid, got out of his vehicle to speak with the kid, exchanged words, kid punches him and then the adult shoots him, that is not self defense because in MY OPINION, the adult loses the right to claim self defense by getting out of his vehicle AFTER following the kid around because he then becomes the AGGRESSOR.


BTW, who is not calmed down? We don't know all the facts so there's nothing to get riled up over. Well, other than the idiots putting a "hit" on the adult, which is friggin stupid.

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#45 Posted : Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:28:07 AM(UTC)
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I just read that the adult was carrying a Kel-Tec 9mm automatic pistol while going out to the grocery store when he noticed the suspicious individual. Who the hell takes their gun to the grocery store? Suppose, you never know when those apples will start to attack!!

Edited by user Wednesday, March 28, 2012 11:01:08 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified


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