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Offline djcubez  
#16 Posted : Friday, July 3, 2009 7:37:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

Darfur, Rwanda, Tibet, Brazil, West Guinea...I could go on. Why are we allowed to turn our backs on these genocides but it's NOT ok to turn our backs on Iraq...


I agree. Saddam had been doing that stuff for ages. No one tried to stop him before to save the people in Iraq, why go now?

Same goes for WWII. The US didn't get in at first, they stayed neutral. Not untill they got attacked by the Japanese and had been declared war by Germany because of Hitler's over-excitemend, did the US enter the war. All they did was supply the UK with some materials before that. The US and the Netherlands did the same thing. They wheren't in the war to save the entire world, they where in it because they got attacked while maintaining neutrality.


Kind of my point. I can understand Afghanistan I mean hell, we did get attacked on our homeland but going into Iraq was a bad call. Sure, they've been a foreign policy nightmare for us but we definitely just made it worse. We should have waited for more support from NATO and other countries at the very least. But shit, even I don't know why we went there.

Also I'm not trying to pick an argument or anything, I just think that with this post everything is contextually related. I mean go back to when we did sign the declaration of independence. "The Declaration asserts that "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."" Yet how long has it taken for other races to be "equal?" We still had slaves when that was written for gods sake.
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Offline Cheesey  
#17 Posted : Saturday, July 4, 2009 10:21:44 AM(UTC)
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I never said America was perfect. Alot of time we don't get involved in other country's problems because of the political wimps. We turn our backs and pretend it's not happening. If you read my post from last year in this thread about the nut case in North Korea.......do you see now that my fears are coming true?
And wait for NATO to get involved? We have seen in the not so distant past where practically no one has the balls to help US when we need it. Yet let one of those countries get attacked and see who they run to FIRST begging for our help.
Saddam had weapons. For those that think he didn't, i think you have your heads in the sand. I have listed where he kept the "great UN" inspectors out of places that he didn't want searched, then all of the sudden he said it was NOW ok. If you believe he had nothing to hide you are only fooling yourself. I WISH the UN would have had the BALLS to just go and do THEIR JOB without wimping out constantly to Saddam. Then maybe the truth would have come out. But if you wanted another North Korea on your hands, thats your choice i guess.
Me, I would rather be an American then anything else.
Happy 4th to all in the U.S.!
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Offline IronMan  
#18 Posted : Saturday, July 4, 2009 11:22:48 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

They captured Hussein 6 years ago. Why are we still there? What is the exit strategy?

I DO appreciate the efforts by our military servicemen and women.
Offline Cheesey  
#19 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 12:47:22 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

They captured Hussein 6 years ago. Why are we still there? What is the exit strategy?

I DO appreciate the efforts by our military servicemen and women.

I don't know....................EDIT: whats the use....
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Offline Formo  
#20 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 2:35:17 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

They captured Hussein 6 years ago. Why are we still there?


Probably because Hussein wasn't the only iron-fist ruler that ran that country. My guess.

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
What is the exit strategy?


Who knows.. Just ask our great Dicta-.. Er. I mean President. =)

I hope you all had a great Independence Day. Never forget why we celebrate this great holiday!
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Offline Cheesey  
#21 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 2:51:11 AM(UTC)
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Hey Formo!
I guess great minds think alike!
I just decided after posting my thoughts that there was no use doing so.
But you were pretty darn close to what i said!

It's always easy to "monday morning QB" decisions that were made. Fact is, the republicans AND democrats agreed that going in was the right thing to do. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20 of course. Once we DID go in, we couldn't just back out and leave the next despot take over............god knows there were PLENTY in line, ready to do so.
I wish we would have done the same thing in North Korea. NOW look at the pickle we are in..........in fact, the whole WORLD is in, because no one had the balls to stop that dictator BEFORE he armed himself with nukes. The whole UN shook their collective fingers at him, and he KNEW they had NO TEETH, so he did whatever he wanted. The world is alot less safe now.

Of course had we STOPPED him, there would be those that would be bashing the U.S. now for doing so.
It's times like this that i am truely glad i don't have any children. What kind of a world would they be growing up in?
If they all arn't nuked by a madman, that is.
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Offline IronMan  
#22 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 3:16:03 AM(UTC)
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So please tell me the plan to make sure there is NEVER a repeat of Hussein. There is no plan. Because that would be impossible. And if that is the reason we are still over there, then we will be there forever.

And I like how you guys always try to turn this into democrat vs republicans. Its impossible to discuss politics with anyone, because no one can ever be objective. I once asked a friend who he was voting for and he said "John Kerry" After asking him why, he simply said, "Because I'm a democrat."

I always found it amuzing how people who have no official ties to either party, decide that they are either one or the other, and will vote that way no matter what. And whenever something goes wrong, its always the OTHER parties fault.
Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#23 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 3:31:47 AM(UTC)
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This is all I have to say about this issue.

Before the first George Bush imposed economic sanctions on Iraq, the number one epidemiological problem in Iraq was obesity. By the time we invaded Iraq the second time, the number one epidemiological problem in Iraq was starvation. Estimates range as high as 600,000 children starved to death as a direct result of the sanctions.

I've read estimates that Saddam Hussein's thugs killed as many as 35,000 to 50,000 Iraqis in the 35+ years they were in power. Sounds like a lot at first glance.

Until you consider the fact that in a mere six years since we invaded, legions more Iraqis have died (estimates range widely, from the tens of thousands to the hundreds of thousands). Thousands of doctors, lawyers, engineers, university professors, scientists, and religious leaders have been slaughtered or forced to flee. The brain drain has been frightful. Hospitals remain in critical condition. Water purification systems remain in shambles. Much of the country still doesn't have power for more than a few hours a day. The highways, formerly some of the best in the Middle East, are a wreck.

And that doesn't even count the thousands of troops we've lost over there.

We often forget that Iraq was formerly a liberal secular state. Now it's swiftly becoming, for all practical purposes, a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy. Between my first and second deployments I was shocked at the level of deterioration I saw. Before we invaded Iraq, a woman could walk the streets of Baghdad alone in blue jeans without fear. Now she must walk around in full hijaab with a male escort to avoid being targeted by Islamic fundamentalists.

So I ask you: Who really unleashed terror in Iraq?

Whether in ousting Saddam Hussein we did what had to be done is a matter for debate, but to say we are leaving Iraq a better place is just laughable. Saddam Hussein may have been an evil man, but he understood intuitively something we can't seem to figure out: The country of Iraq is an unnatural entity that can only be held together through sheer threat of force. The Iraqis are not an individualistic culture like ours; they are a collectivist tribal culture. They don't want democracy; they never have; and they probably never will. So why don't we just let them have the kind of government they want and solve our own mounting problems at home?
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Offline IronMan  
#24 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 3:35:05 AM(UTC)
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NSD nailed it. Absolutely NAILED it.
Offline Gravedigga  
#25 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 3:38:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

Darfur, Rwanda, Tibet, Brazil, West Guinea...I could go on. Why are we allowed to turn our backs on these genocides but it's NOT ok to turn our backs on Iraq...


Exactly!! The hypocrisy really makes me sick. Do we care or not? Care a little, a lot, for these people but not those people. Why are we not liberating the people of North Korea? Or Iran? Bring them democracy...............that we just sat & sit back letting this genocide in Africa happen, when we knew about it........God it makes me hate our politicians so much. Hard not to be ashamed of our countries politics.
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A wise man once said
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You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#26 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 3:44:22 AM(UTC)
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Gravedigga, if you want to organize a mercenary force on your own dime to invade all the countries you feel aren't getting it right, you go right ahead. You have every right to perform whatever activist functions you want with your own money. It's not the rightful role of our military to impose our will -- our perception of what is right and wrong -- on every country just because we want to. And we don't have the resources to do it even if it were the right thing to do.
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Offline Gravedigga  
#27 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 3:45:44 AM(UTC)
Gravedigga

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Joined: 8/16/2008(UTC)


Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

Darfur, Rwanda, Tibet, Brazil, West Guinea...I could go on. Why are we allowed to turn our backs on these genocides but it's NOT ok to turn our backs on Iraq...


Tactically, they don't/didn't make as much sense? Who really knows? Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.



Maybe i'm wrong. It looks like you're saying that it would be harder to do so lets stay out of it. If our government thought like that, i'd be disgusted
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A wise man once said
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You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Offline Gravedigga  
#28 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 3:54:13 AM(UTC)
Gravedigga

Rank: Fresh Cheesehead

Posts: 945
Joined: 8/16/2008(UTC)


Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

They captured Hussein 6 years ago. Why are we still there? What is the exit strategy?

I DO appreciate the efforts by our military servicemen and women.


Think of it in terms of a gang, like maybe the bloods and crips.

You go over to a rival gang leader and kill him. The war does not stop, it only gets worse where they retaliate even harder than you. Only way for one gang to win is to wipe out all the threats in the other gang neighborhood and put your own people in there or let the good people there take over.
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UserPostedImage


A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#29 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 3:55:30 AM(UTC)
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I should clarify that I wasn't accusing the United States military of slaughtering the intelligentsia of Iraq. I was saying that in removing the stabilizing force that was Saddam Hussein, we helped unleash a wave of reprisals that had been stewing for decades. The Shi'a, who are largely uneducated herdsmen, have been targeting Sunni professionals with a vengeance. Classic class warfare and heartbreaking to behold.
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Offline Gravedigga  
#30 Posted : Sunday, July 5, 2009 4:06:13 AM(UTC)
Gravedigga

Rank: Fresh Cheesehead

Posts: 945
Joined: 8/16/2008(UTC)


Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Gravedigga, if you want to organize a mercenary force on your own dime to invade all the countries you feel aren't getting it right, you go right ahead. You have every right to perform whatever activist functions you want with your own money. It's not the rightful role of our military to impose our will -- our perception of what is right and wrong -- on every country just because we want to. And we don't have the resources to do it even if it were the right thing to do.


It's not that, it's the hypocrisy. We say, he has WMD's. We cant find them. We say we have to liberate the people of IRAQ, we did it. We say we have to make sure their government is in place and safe before we can leave. We dont even publicly recognize what is going on in Darfur. During the Olympics, we were all hush hush about it politically because China is involved in teh exploitation. Threatening to expel athletes if they bring up the issue. What the hell?

Why'd we go to Vietnam? Why'd we go to Iraq in the first place in 1990? Why do we help out Cubans and give different rules for the Hatians?

Everyone wants to talk immigration and complain yet we dont mind the modern day slavery with mass amounts of Mexicans working for peanuts doing jobs Americans wont do for the money.

Just amazes me how openly full of shit politicians and the news can be in this day and get away with it.
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A wise man once said
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You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
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