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Offline Zero2Cool  
#1 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 2:52:07 PM(UTC)
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Typically I steer away from anything that could be political. However, with Independence Day coming up, the US being involved in the war I feel this is very good reading for everyone. Hence, why I am posting it in the most popularly viewed forum here.

Do not get caught up in the religious aspect of this. Focus on the perception given.

I found it incredible about what happened to those who signed the Declaration of Independence. The sacrifices they made. Tremendous.


I don't care if you think we should be in Iraq or not. I have my opinions on it as do you. I'm not sharing this to get that incite. I'm sharing this ... well if after reading you can't figure it out, there's no reason in trying to tell you.



Here is an edited version.
I tried to remove heavy religious material.
Quote:
Independence Day Sermon by Mark Gungor

Freedom is never free.

Who were the men willing to sign the Declaration of Independence?

Of the 56 men who signed it two were twenty years of age, sixteen were in their thirties, twenty in their forties, eleven in their fifties, six in their sixties, and one, Benjamin Franklin, over 70.

All but two were married. Each had an average of 6 children. 24 were lawyers, 9 were merchants, 14 were farmers, 4 were doctors, and one was a preacher.

Were not talking about low lifes, drifters or rebels. Were talking about educated, civilized men who were willing to sacrifice everything for a cause that they believed in. And history shows us that they paid the price for that bravery.

Freedom is never free.

When Carter Braxton of Virginia, signed the Declaration of Independence, he was a wealthy planter and trader; but following his signing his ships were destroyed and to pay his debts, he lost his forum and all of his property and in the end he died in rags.

Thomas McKean of Delaware was so harassed by the enemy that he was forced to move his family five times in five months. He served in Congress without pay, his family in poverty and in hiding.

Vandals looted the properties of Ellery and Clymer and Hall and Gwinnett and Walton and Hayward and Rutledge and Middleton.

Thomas Nelson, Jr. of Virginia raised two million dollars in his own name to help fund the war. After the War, he personally paid back the loans, wiping out his entire estate; he was never reimbursed by his government. And in the final battle for Yorktown, Nelson, urged General Washington to fire on Nelsons own forum, then occupied by the enemy. He died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his forum and everything destroyed, his wife imprisoned--she died within a few months.

Richard Stockton, who signed the Declaration, was captured and mistreated, and his health mortally broken. And then his estate was pillaged.

Freedom is never free.

John Hart was driven from his wifes bedside while she was dying; their thirteen children fled in all directions for their lives. His fields and gristmill were laid waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves and returned forum after the War to find his wife dead, his children gone, his properties gone. He died a few weeks later of exhaustion and a broken heart.

Of the 56 signers of the Declaration, few were long to survive. Five were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons captured.

And though few of them benefited from their bravery, and most lost everything they owned, not one recanted his original declaration of independence. These men were courageous and valiant and brave and because of them and others, we have the privilege of being here today, and living in the greatest country in the world.

Freedom is never free.

On Nov. 19, 1863, Pres. Abraham Lincoln stood on the battlefield at Gettysburg to dedicate a portion of that land as a national cemetery. After his opening sentences of Four score and seven years ago he said this:

"We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting & proper that we should do this.

"But in a larger sense we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living & dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here; but it can never forget what they did here.

"It is for us, the living, rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us - that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion - that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain; that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, & that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

Freedom is never free.

We must realize that if freedom is to be carried on from generation to generation - if our children & our grandchildren are to enjoy the freedoms we enjoy today - then we must be willing to pay the price for freedom.

Throughout our nations history, brave men and women have paid the price of freedom. We are free to worship today because others before us have sacrificed their money, their energies, their blood and their very lives.

Even today, the men and women of our armed forces are fighting in a war against terrorism against those who hate America and are sworn to see it destroyed. By facing the enemies of freedom on their forum ground, our soldiers have kept the war from coming here. Thankfully, we are able to go to work, to shop, to play without the fear of bombs going off around us. But not without a price

Freedom is never free.

It doesnt just happen. It never has. There is a profound phrase that says All evil needs to prevail is for good men to do nothing. Thankfully, we have good men and women who will do whatever it takes for freedoms bell to continue to ring.

Sadly, I am greatly disturbed today and question if America is truly willing to pay the price necessary for freedom.

No matter what your political beliefs and opinions are about the war on terror whether we should be or not be in Iraq, I find it very disheartening when I hear opponents of the war say that one of the reasons we should quit is because the price has been too high so far, about 3,500 men and women in uniform have died while fighting in Iraq over 4 years.

I believe that any loss of life is tragic. And if any of the men and women associated with this church were to die in combat we would all deeply grieve, and the personal loss would be great indeed. But personal loss cannot keep a nation from being willing to do what is needed to pay the price for freedom.

Are 3,500 American lives over 4 years too high a price to pay to fight for freedom?

I ask you to look at these numbers for some perspective. Over the past 4 years in America:

175,000 people died in cars
112,000 died due to murder
52,000 died from falling
16,000 died from medical complications
68,000 are listed as having died in the "accidental non-specific" category

TOTAL: 423,000

Consider the first number: 175,000 dead from car accidents. Yet no one is demanding that we should surrender our right to drive cars. Sadly however, when it comes to freedom and democracy, it appears that some in America feel that 3,500 lives over 4 years is just too much for our nation to bear.

During the civil war, tens of thousands of men would die in a single day.

During World War II, thousands of Americans would die in a single day trying to take a beach or fight for a seemingly worthless piece of ground on some Pacific island.

Yet today, after 4 years, many believe that 3,500 lives is a cost that is just too high.

A message from OBL said that their plan is to continue to extract a cost from Americans until the price gets too high and we return home in shame. Why do the enemies of freedom get encouraged by a statement like that? Because they think our price is very low. That it wont take that many more casualties before we will say the price is just too high.

Sadly, I think OBL is right. I pray to God that he is wrong.

I fear that many have falsely come to believe that freedom is, indeed, free. That it should just happen. That it should come easily. That it should come just because we wish it to.

Despite our best wishes, however, we cannot escape this eternal truth: freedom is never free.

Are you free this morning? Thankfully, all you have to do to enjoy the freedom of this nation is to simply be here.




I hope after reading this some of you value your freedom a little bit more. I know I did.
















- UPDATE -
Originally posted end of June 2007

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Offline cm_awesome  
#2 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 3:02:19 PM(UTC)
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3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.
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Offline pack_in_black  
#3 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 3:17:04 PM(UTC)
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^^^^^


.....aaaaand ya missed the point.
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Offline cm_awesome  
#4 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 3:18:17 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
^^^^^


.....aaaaand ya missed the point.


I get the point, just had to respond to that.
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Offline spardo  
#5 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 4:46:08 PM(UTC)
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Overall a good point, and while I oppose the current war in Iraq, I agree that to remain free and strong we must all pay a price.

However when it comes to sending men and women off to war, the majority of the country has not had to personally sacrifice since WWII as deferrals, exemptions, etc. excluded many white upper class young men from Vietnam and the all volunteer service has skewed even further toward poor, rural and less educated.

When it comes to material sacrifice(gas rationing, etc.) again Americans have not paid a price since WWII.

I would also argue that the major price we should all pay to remain free and strong is an activist and educated electorate - which we probably have not had since the 60's.
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Offline walleye  
#6 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 5:03:18 PM(UTC)
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Yes i do i just hope some of the teenagers do.
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Offline Formo  
#7 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 6:26:28 PM(UTC)
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I never take my freedoms for granted. Never.
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Offline dingus  
#8 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 6:53:17 PM(UTC)
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Check out Bill Moyers Journal from last friday night. you can find it on pbs.org

it's not exactly about this post but reading this line made me think of the show.

"Are you free this morning? Thankfully, all you have to do to enjoy the freedom of this nation is to simply be here."

The problem is that there is a lot more to being free than "simply being here", unfortunately we've become spoiled as a nation and it's gonna get much worse before it gets better.

and spardo, right on brother.

same goes for you, cm_awesome
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Offline wischeez  
#9 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 7:49:32 PM(UTC)
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Great post Z2C!! Also, if you figure out the amount of service men and women who died in Vietnam (over 58,000), it comes out to approximately 11 per day or over 4,000 per year.

Freedom is NOT Free.

<--- Vietnam Vet
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Offline Formo  
#10 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 9:52:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Great post Z2C!! Also, if you figure out the amount of service men and women who died in Vietnam (over 58,000), it comes out to approximately 11 per day or over 4,000 per year.

Freedom is NOT Free.

<--- Vietnam Vet


I know I'm not the first to say this (at least I hope!), but THANK YOU for your service, sir! :thumbright: :thumbleft:

When I graduated high school, I tried 2 times to join the Army.. both times I failed my physical (I have weak lungs, apparently).
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Offline Cheesey  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2008 2:27:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?
There were just as many protestors about us entering WW2 as there are now with the war we are in. They didn't feel we had any business trying to stop Adolph Hitler.
All that is necessary for evil to win, is for good men to stand by and do nothing.
Look at that nutcase in North Korea. He has nukes, and will use them. He should have been stopped WAY before he was allowed to get nuclear weapons. But everyone was afraid to take action. Now, we have a nut job that may just push the button.
You can't reason with mad men. Just look at AlQueda. They want us dead.......every one of us. You, your loved ones, ALL of us. You can't reason with them, as they don't CARE if they die. As long as they can take out some of us, they are fine with dying.
Now......back to the thread........I NEVER take my freedom for granted. It may be "free" to us, but it cost many people a GREAT amount for us to have it. Some one had to pay the bill for us to have our freedom. Even the freedom to blast our leaders for entering a war that they might feel was unnecessary. Try that in most countrys, say Iraq for example, and you would be put to death for voicing your opinion.
I always thank veterans, every chance i get.
Wischeez......THANK YOU for what you went through for our freedom! Vietnam Vets never got the appreciation they earned and DESERVED!!!
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#12 Posted : Friday, July 3, 2009 5:12:34 PM(UTC)
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It's that time again. I think this stands true ...

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Offline djcubez  
#13 Posted : Friday, July 3, 2009 5:24:15 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

Darfur, Rwanda, Tibet, Brazil, West Guinea...I could go on. Why are we allowed to turn our backs on these genocides but it's NOT ok to turn our backs on Iraq...
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Offline Rockmolder  
#14 Posted : Friday, July 3, 2009 6:28:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

Darfur, Rwanda, Tibet, Brazil, West Guinea...I could go on. Why are we allowed to turn our backs on these genocides but it's NOT ok to turn our backs on Iraq...


I agree. Saddam had been doing that stuff for ages. No one tried to stop him before to save the people in Iraq, why go now?

Same goes for WWII. The US didn't get in at first, they stayed neutral. Not untill they got attacked by the Japanese and had been declared war by Germany because of Hitler's over-excitemend, did the US enter the war. All they did was supply the UK with some materials before that. The US and the Netherlands did the same thing. They wheren't in the war to save the entire world, they where in it because they got attacked while maintaining neutrality.

But I don't want to turn this into an entire discussion. I don't know how appropriate that is on Independence Day. It's a big thing over there, I asume.
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Offline Formo  
#15 Posted : Friday, July 3, 2009 6:52:26 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

Darfur, Rwanda, Tibet, Brazil, West Guinea...I could go on. Why are we allowed to turn our backs on these genocides but it's NOT ok to turn our backs on Iraq...


Tactically, they don't/didn't make as much sense? Who really knows? Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

As far as Independence Day.. I hope you all have a great weekend celebrating our 233rd birthday as a country. And in my humble (but accurate) opinion, the best country on this ball of mud. =P
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