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Offline Wade  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, July 2, 2013 8:39:57 AM(UTC)
Wade

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Pack93z as "hoity toity"...now I've heard it all! And the only time I remember him being old-ladyish is when he had to dress up as Brunhilde because an ill-fated bet with Nick.

Actually, the loosening of morals *can* have an effect on society's stability and sustainability. I'm not particularly worried about thug culture (partly because I live in a town of 1200), but to me that thug culture is symptomatic of a larger problem.

I'm not going to blame gangsta rap or television or Hollywood. To my mind, these are all symptoms [except for some Ice-T/Public Enemy stuff and the Steven Seagal movies, of course, which are part of coolness] of a larger problem of self-centeredness and entitlement in America. Like DakotaT, though for different reasons, I blame the baby boomers. They were the first spoiled generation and the first generation that started to take God systematically out of public/community life and so they [er, we] started us on the path. Two more generations of spoiled adolescents followed. And so we are now threatened by a pervasive culture of me...me...me, and instead of leavening the bread of life pursued out of self-interest by the temperance and social responsibility of following and pleasing God, we leaven it with the moral relativism of "good for society is what I (or the President or CNN or my professor or my charismatic preacher) say it is.

People might find it odd that I put both professor and preacher in that parenthetical. But today's professor is far more willing to put faith in (his/her) human reason than defer by faith in God. And as for the charismatic preachers out there (I'm thinking in particular of the "prosperity gospel" types), they're more Madison Avenue, New York Times, Harvard, and Playboy in their argument than they are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

And forget about Paul. Oh, those TV preachers love Paul, especially when they want to stay Old Testament. But in their lives, and the prosperity they preach, they completely ignore the real meat of the Pauline letters: the God first part, the Bible as Truth part, the passes all understanding part, and above all, the submission part of being a "slave" to God's Word.

Just like the mainstream culture and, for that matter, almost all of the fringe cultures. (Indeed, this is the biggest problem with most of the libertarians and anarchists with whom I am otherwise usually so sympatico: even more than the mainstream, they have bought into the secularization of life.

After all, secularization and modern economic growth c. 1750-present have appeared to be joined at the hip. The Enlightenment, the industrial revolution, technological change, innovation, democracy, liberalism [either the classical kind or the modern kind], nationalism, communism, social democracy -- these are all human inventions and human institutions and human systems. And they are inventions, institutions and systems that have accompanied historically unprecedented wealth and opportunity and quality of life.

Yet while all of those human changes have been erecting more and more valuable buildings, higher and higher skyscrapers of prosperity, the land underneath has been decaying. And a big part of the decay, the biggest part of all IMO, is replacement of a God-inspired and God-following morality with a morality that, to paraphrase a famous agnostic pagan from a while back, holds that man (and his values) are the measure of all things.

And, so, instead of ensuring that we are grounded upon the (bed)Rock of Ages, we simply, in the manner of Vegas, simply build bigger and fancier monuments to our self-importance on beds of sand.

I still believe that ours is the greatest nation in human history. But so was Babylon.

And remember what happened to *its* towers.



And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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Pack93z on 7/2/2013(UTC)
Offline Wade  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:16:23 AM(UTC)
Wade

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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
I guess I need to quantify all statements.... lol.. of course the main driving force in a child's life should be the parents or whomever fills that role.

But growing up and interactions with my 14 son and his friends, and the age group in central Wisconsin today. There is a small group that talk about sports with a passion.. but more so, it is one artist or another that drives the conversation.. or video games, lol.

When I grew up and now occasionally coaching a number of sports now (ages 7 to 16), no it isn't just about winning or losing.


I agree with everything in your post. I just want to go slightly sidewise (but stay on topic).

I'm curious. When did you start "organized" sports? For me, it started in 7th grade. (We didn't even have little league until I was too old for it, though it was certainly around in bigger towns and cities). Before that, we learned and played football in backyards and in the tree-less parts of public parts, in pick up games. (We also played tackle football, without helmets or any pads.) And that's where I learned sportsmanship. On the playground. Playing catch with my dad or my brother or dealing with the parents of my fellow players.

We didn't have fancy equipment. Some were lucky to get new baseball gloves, but they weren't $150 gloves. Our footballs and basketballs lasted for years, and our baseballs lasted until they were so stained by dirt and grass stains that they got lost when someone homered into the long grass.

We didn't have rule books. We didn't have school sponsorship. We didn't have coaches, merely parents who would play catch and siblings who would pick us for that day's team (sometimes). We had games in PhyEd, of course, but we learned the games, and we learned the morality of sportsmanship outside of school.

"Going out for sports"? Only in 7th grade. Before that we "played games." Oh, we kept score. But only for one game at a time. We didn't have "standings" and "tournaments" and "league championships". It was "team" activity, but the teams were as ephemeral as the score. One day Mike with the great arm was on your team. The next day it was Greg, and you were trying to tackle Mike before he scored.

Is that the case today? No. As a teacher, I have the ability in the summer to walk around town in the middle of the day. [Not because I have summers "off" and work less, mind you, but merely because in the summer I have more freedom to decide when I take breaks and when I toil at the desk.] But do I see young kids playing in yards or in the park as we used to do? Only on weekends when there is a tournament that mom/dad can attend, chaperone, coach.

Oh, kids still play "on their own", don't get me wrong. But they don't play the same way.

We don't let them. We are too busy, and they're too busy, organizing their lives and pursuing their me-ness via cell phone, World of Warcraft, or starting on their fifth grade team.

There's hardly a player in college or pro sports today that wasn't relegating the time he or she was "playing" his or her game play to time spent in or preparing for "organized leagues" by the time they and their neighbors were in third or fourth grade.

I had coaches who taught me many of the virtues of teamwork. I also had some who were awful at it, but that's neither here nor there. Because I didn't get all those teamwork value from my coaches. I learned it by dealing with asshole ball hogs and learning which parents were which and by getting the wind knocked out me by some guy two grades above me and then having one of my teammates beating the crap out of him.

The foundation of my teamwork values wasn't the ground of a school football field nicely laid out with chalk lines. It was back yards and parks where boundaries were defined by a jacket or a pop can, where scoring was determined by an invisible line between two trees, and where "playing fair" was determined by arguments (and occasionally) fights between the protagonists.

Today?

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline Pack93z  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:17:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Pack93z as "hoity toity"...now I've heard it all! And the only time I remember him being old-ladyish is when he had to dress up as Brunhilde because an ill-fated bet with Nick.



They still have that picture hanging here at work in the break room.. how they got that image I still do not know. I have my guess.. but even for VR that is pretty sneaky.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Pack93z  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:29:57 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post


I'm curious. When did you start "organized" sports?


I was a football fan since I can remember as a child, per my parents.. age 2 I was running around with her Packer helmet that was for decor lol. Cheap plastic helmet with minimal padding.. but it did the trick.

Growing up on a farm and being the oldest, we didn't have time for me to play summer baseball.. but organized football was freshmen year.. but neighbor hood ball with a bunch of farm kids.. almost every weekend.. our one part of the yard was about a 30 yard football field.. shaped and maintained by me as such lol.

Basketball I started about age 8 playing organized ball.. but I had to do the chores after practice no matter the time.. home games as well.

We never had sponsors other than baseball.. but like I said, spring and summer ball was out.. probably why I never excelled at it.

In terms of rules.. even neighborhood ball has a rule set.. but rarely a time limit. But in terms of game play.. it was very similar to what you watched on the weekends or nights.

Sportsmanship was not a big part of the neighborhood ball.. that was about the score. But I grew up with two very good coaches.. one still coaches today yet.. they were grinders but they also had a very solid foundation of how to play the game. The lone exception was the varsity Basketball coach.. he was all about the score.. had a temper like Bobby Knight and suffered a heart attack around 50... but that was the exception. Baseball in HS we yearly were int he state conversation in terms of championship.. still are today in our division. Iverson still coaches that way.. drive hard but drive straight by the book.

Anyway.. done rambling and have to run.. but IMO, one can be in it to win.. but play the game with integrity and grace. Ladyish or not. Big Grin

By the way.. to be clear, I know living in rural America with lack of "cultural" options also play a role in my view of a high importance in sports... and the outdoors.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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SINCITYCHEEZE on 7/2/2013(UTC)
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, July 2, 2013 11:53:09 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
I guess I need to quantify all statements.... lol.. of course the main driving force in a child's life should be the parents or whomever fills that role.

But growing up and interactions with my 14 son and his friends, and the age group in central Wisconsin today. There is a small group that talk about sports with a passion.. but more so, it is one artist or another that drives the conversation.. or video games, lol.

When I grew up and now occasionally coaching a number of sports now (ages 7 to 16), no it isn't just about winning or losing. First it is about teaching fundamentals, from stance to arm angles to footwork and situational play. Then it is about sportsmanship and learning how to win and losing with humility. Sure competition and "winning" is important, but it is truly rare for an athlete not to experience loss. It is how you deal with loss, manage it and grow from it that is important both in sports and more importantly life.

Sure in pro ball or even college today.. winning is everything.. but at the high school and below level.. it is about growth, teaching and showing them how to apply the lessons learned in sports to life.

Each season I coach, I share my story and how I made it through the physical and non physical part, and why I take the approach I do.

Make no mistake, I want to win.. and we drive to win.. but within the framework of sportsmanship. Te me.. that is what the essence of sports is about.. and why year after year I become more and more distanced by the pro brands of sports.. every now and then you see glimpses of the roots of sports.. but more often than not it is money and whining ass punks crying about one thing or another on the field of play. From Lebron James to Aaron Rodgers.. every call is not going to go your way.. deal with it and carry on. Tim Duncan to me displays that constantly.. Barry Sanders did. Scott Rolen did.

And in terms of the world I grew up in.. hell yeah sports was what we talked about in school.. and I was usually behind the curve as I lived on a farm and sporting events were secondary to daily life. But when I went outside.. it was to play hoops or ball.. when at school the topics were sports driven.

Maybe that is not the norm.. but in the same small town decades later.. sports are not king.. some jackass with his pants around his knees with a mic in their hand. Or some dumpster fire of a musician or actor/actress is.. or the latest call of duty game.

Old fashion or not.. it is how I viewed the world growing up.. and think many a child still does. Just not the same percentage as once was.


I see pretty much the same as you among youth regarding less passionate interest in sports and more in whoever the current big name in music or whatever is. However, I don't see any translation of that to behavior like Hernandez or for that matter any correlation with behavior at all, either bad or good.

I used to coach youth sports too, and I of course taught the fundamentals, and I gave lip service to sportsmanship and grace in winning or losing, and all that goody goody crap, but I'm here to tell you, I never FELT it - not as a kid and teenager, not at middle age playing and coaching, and still not now as an old man still playing. I just came from three grueling sets of tennis, losing 2 of 3 to a guy I usually beat, and yeah, I congratulated him, but my blood was boiling because I choked on a couple of crucial points. Grace is a damn ACT - unless you are a helluva lot better person than me or anybody I know. And what you said about pro and college, you better include high school in that too, and middle school not that far removed.

Officiating deserves its a whole thread of its own hahahahaha. I will just say, I see occasional mistakes in the NFL and MLB. However, I see a PATTERN OF BIAS in the damned NBA - bias in favor of certain teams - mostly but not limited to big cities (oddly, Memphis and San Antonio get favored treatment too) and in favor of certain "stars", as well as against certain players. TIM DUNCAN??? Gosh, man, I hate that guy so much!!! Nobody I can think of in the history of pro sports ever got the God damn BIAS in his FAVOR like Duncan. It was comical in the Olympics to see that piece of crap with the confused and disheartened look on his face when after decades in the NBA, somebody among officials of the world didn't get the message and actually called them FAIR on him. Duncan fouls literally EVERY play, and let somebody as much as breathe on him and it's a foul. And Shawn Bradley just the opposite!!!!!! The God damned NBA just couldn't stand a white 7'6" guy being successful. He would literally get MUGGED and no call, and he would make a clean block or do NOTHING at all and get fouled out. They LITERALLY STOLE HIS CAREER!!! Nowitzski it started to be the same until Mark Cuban opened his mouth and complained publicly. And Steve Nash in Dallas versus Steve Nash in Phoenix? It's just CRIMINAL. He got beat up horrendously with virtually no calls in Dallas, but as soon as he went to Phoenix, it was Thou Shalt Not get within a foot of Steve Nash. Yeah, off topic, but the NBA really gets me going, and to use Tim Duncan as an example of anything good? Hell No!!!!

I hear ya; I sympathize/empathize/whatever about the cultural deterioration. but you know what? Most of those dumb ass teenagers are gonna grow up just fine, and the ones who don't probably wouldn't have back in the day either. And at some point, their sports fanhood will probably even kick in hahahaha.
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Online DoddPower  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, July 2, 2013 12:57:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
I hear ya; I sympathize/empathize/whatever about the cultural deterioration. but you know what? Most of those dumb ass teenagers are gonna grow up just fine, and the ones who don't probably wouldn't have back in the day either. And at some point, their sports fanhood will probably even kick in hahahaha.


I agree with this, for the most part. Things change with time. The changes aren't necessarily good, or bad, they are just simply different. The change will always be difficult for some to deal with, and many will think everything is going to hell. But for the most part, things just continue to change but the majority of people still remain "good." Yeah, one wouldn't be likely to recognize society if they could see it 100 years in the future, but that's just how things are, for better or worse.

Offline texaspackerbacker  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:11:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
I agree with this, for the most part. Things change with time. The changes aren't necessarily good, or bad, they are just simply different. The change will always be difficult for some to deal with, and many will think everything is going to hell. But for the most part, things just continue to change but the majority of people still remain "good." Yeah, one wouldn't be likely to recognize society if they could see it 100 years in the future, but that's just how things are, for better or worse.



True, but I'd estimate 90-95% of the change you see would be technological. I can say first hand about change over 60+ years now, and it's like that.

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Online DoddPower  
#23 Posted : Wednesday, July 3, 2013 8:45:42 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
True, but I'd estimate 90-95% of the change you see would be technological. I can say first hand about change over 60+ years now, and it's like that.



Eh, I think more things change than just technology. If for no other reason, technology facilities changes in almost every other aspect of life; from farming, to business, to social interactions, and basically everything else. I haven't been alive for 65 years, but I don't need to be as I can notice that change in the time I have been alive. Things are substantially different now than they even were when I was a kid growing up in the country, at least for many.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#24 Posted : Wednesday, July 3, 2013 8:57:08 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
Eh, I think more things change than just technology. If for no other reason, technology facilities changes in almost every other aspect of life; from farming, to business, to social interactions, and basically everything else. I haven't been alive for 65 years, but I don't need to be as I can notice that change in the time I have been alive. Things are substantially different now than they even were when I was a kid growing up in the country, at least for many.


Yeah, I suppose things secondary to the technology - that's fair to say, and yeah, if it's 90-95% technology, that leaves 5-10% social or whatever. As the bumper sticker says, SHIT HAPPENS hahahaha - but for the most part, you can avoid stepping in it.

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Offline Pack93z  
#25 Posted : Wednesday, July 3, 2013 9:07:44 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
I agree with this, for the most part. Things change with time. The changes aren't necessarily good, or bad, they are just simply different. The change will always be difficult for some to deal with, and many will think everything is going to hell. But for the most part, things just continue to change but the majority of people still remain "good." Yeah, one wouldn't be likely to recognize society if they could see it 100 years in the future, but that's just how things are, for better or worse.



Just to be clear.. I am not saying we are doomed as a nation based on my opinions.. but many are pointing to the gun as the problem in today's America. It isn't the gun.. it is social aspects such as parenting and influences that are the problem, IMO. This article just supports an aspect of that..

We will survive.. certainly, but we most definitely can and should improve as a nation.. for the short term and long term.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#26 Posted : Wednesday, July 3, 2013 9:19:36 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
Just to be clear.. I am not saying we are doomed as a nation based on my opinions.. but many are pointing to the gun as the problem in today's America. It isn't the gun.. it is social aspects such as parenting and influences that are the problem, IMO. This article just supports an aspect of that..

We will survive.. certainly, but we most definitely can and should improve as a nation.. for the short term and long term.


If the whole article and discussion was framed as an anti-gun thing, I'd wholeheartedly agree, it's not. But it also wasn't society or Hispanics in general or athletes in general or anybody but Aaron Hernandez offing that guy(s) - allegedly hahaha.

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If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
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