Join Our Green Bay Packers Interactive Community!

We have been providing fans with the best source of Packers information since 2006!
Your participation is greatly anticipated!
Login or Register.
4 Pages123>»
Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline Zero2Cool  
#1 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 5:56:03 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool

Rank: Legend

Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI

Applause Given: 1,901
Applause Received: 2,097

You can click Source for more on this subject.


Source wrote:
With Captain Comeback, we like to look at the close finishes the NFL provides every week, and also do a good share of proving when the facts are being distorted by battles over semantics.

The much-publicized ending in the Green Bay at Seattle game from Monday Night Football is a classic example of both. It was one of the most exciting finishes ever, and the ending has been spoiled by controversy from the moment it happened as people fight over what the words “control”, “possession”, and “catch” mean in NFL terms.

The ending has hit mainstream news outside of the realm of sports, and many sources – most of which are not even qualified to make the statement – refer to it as the “worst call in NFL history.” That might be true if your knowledge of NFL history starts in 2012.

Enough already. The biggest travesty in the NFL this week comes from all the fans and media that have let a perfect storm of events shape the biggest overreaction ever to a call that was right, and a touchdown that was legitimate.

When you take your emotions out of it, and only study the facts, then there is no denying the replacement referees got the ending right, and the NFL’s statement was correct in upholding the call.



Analyzing the Touchdown

Want the short or long version? You know you are getting the long anyway, but if you need a summary, then here it goes.

The short version: Golden Tate had the first control of the ball, catching it with his left hand, which never loses control of the ball throughout the entire process of the play. His two feet hit the ground to establish possession before M.D. Jennings establishes possession. Tate’s butt hits the ground, and at this point, he still has control, possession and is in the end zone for a good touchdown. Tate pushed off for an uncalled offensive pass interference that would have ended the game, but this is irrelevant when history shows no referee in football will make such a call on a Hail Mary. Seattle’s win is legit.

The long version will now go through the whole catch, and the key is to look at a frame-by-frame analysis.

While slow-motion replays are sexier for TV, you have to take a frame-by-frame approach to get evidence of what really happens. No matter how many replays you watch from whatever angles you find, it is the exact frames at the key moments that will tell you what really happened, and why this is a touchdown.

First, everyone can agree that this was a pass in the end zone, with both players always inbounds, and the ball never hits the ground. That means it has to be either ruled a touchdown or an interception. That is not up for debate by anyone.

Next, we need to define control, possession and a catch, as these have been mixed up quite a bit this week. Possession only occurs when a catch is completed, and having control is a key element of making a catch.

The following is from the NFL’s statement on what defines a catch as stated in Rule 8, Section 1.

“A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).”

If the player is going to the ground like they were in this play, then control must be maintained throughout the process for the catch to count. That did happen, and all the wrestling for the ball that took place was irrelevant as the touchdown was already good.

The following is the NFL’s rule for a simultaneous catch, as there apparently is no rule for simultaneous possession, which many have tried to talk about for this play.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

“Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.”

Technically, there probably never is a true simultaneous catch in the NFL, as someone will always touch the ball first (size of ball and hands dictate as much), as Tate did here. Hell, this call was probably still way closer than Bret Hart and Lex Luger simultaneously going over the top rope in the 1994 Royal Rumble. Now if you want to talk about a rip-off that you had to pay for…
UserPostedImage
Sponsor
Offline OlHoss1884  
#2 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 6:35:20 AM(UTC)
OlHoss1884

Rank: 5th Round Draft Pick

United States
Joined: 5/8/2013(UTC)
Location: Waukegan, IL

Applause Given: 53
Applause Received: 158

Except thatit was clear on the replay (and to the official closer to the play who initially made the call) that it was not simultaneous possession and that Jennings was on the ground in the end zone with possession before Tate wrestled his hands around it. The initial call on the field was interception and touchback, which was overruled on the field by an official who was farther away with a poorer angle on the play. The replay made it clear that the initial call was correct...it was NOT all that close. Let's not forget the clearly blown offensive pass interference non-call as well. THAT was so bad the league even admitted it.

Like with the Majkowski call in 1989 I think it ultimately had more to do with an amazing play at the nd of the game where they looked for an excuse to grant a break to the home team. I do not think, in the end, it made a ton of difference because I don't think anyone was going to keep SF from winning the NFC, whether the gamewas played there or in GB, but it will still go downas one of the more egregious officiating blunders of all time.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" --Albert Einstein
thanks Post received 2 applause.
wpr on 6/27/2013(UTC), texaspackerbacker on 6/28/2013(UTC)
Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#3 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 7:28:43 AM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister

Rank: 2nd Round Draft Pick

Joined: 6/12/2010(UTC)

Applause Given: 286
Applause Received: 266

Except the Ref said he blew the call.

The call was so bad, 138 people lost their jobs.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.

Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
nerdmann on 6/27/2013(UTC)
Offline Zero2Cool  
#4 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 7:39:56 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool

Rank: Legend

Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI

Applause Given: 1,901
Applause Received: 2,097

Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister Go to Quoted Post
Except the Ref said he blew the call.

The call was so bad, 138 people lost their jobs.


Lance Easley has stood by the call, as quoted here - link.

And 138 lost their job, but 138 got their job back.

Edit, "Replacement referee Wayne Elliott, who initially defended the call of a touchdown by Seahawks receiver Golden Tate, reluctantly admitted during an interview with Cris Collinsworth and James Brown on this week’s Inside the NFL that the call “probably” should have been an interception."

Edited by user Thursday, June 27, 2013 7:53:48 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

UserPostedImage
Offline PackerTraxx  
#5 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 8:28:16 AM(UTC)
PackerTraxx

Rank: 2nd Round Draft Pick

Joined: 8/13/2008(UTC)

Applause Given: 18
Applause Received: 127

Plain and simple...BS.
Why is Jerry Kramer not in the Hall of Fame?
thanks Post received 1 applause.
buckeyepackfan on 6/27/2013(UTC)
Offline buckeyepackfan  
#6 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 8:37:58 AM(UTC)
buckeyepackfan

Rank: 1st Round Draft Pick

FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Bronze: 2012Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2014

Joined: 8/7/2008(UTC)
Location: Lima, Ohio

Applause Given: 298
Applause Received: 420

Originally Posted by: PackerTraxx Go to Quoted Post
Plain and simple...BS.


Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause

Just one of many bad calls in that game, and across the league.

That call finally made The NFL realize they better get real refs back or The game itself was going to start suffering.

The replacement refs are the reason I never refer back to the 1st 3 games of the 2012 season to make any kind of comparisons.


IT WAS NOT REAL FOOTBALL!!!!

Most didn't have a clue on the rules and none could keep up with the fast pace of the game.

All that being said, The Packers had their chances to still be at home for the playoffs, the cards just didn't fall their way at the end of the year.
Enjoy the ride – It kicks and just keeps on kickin’.
Offline DarkaneRules  
#7 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 9:50:07 AM(UTC)
DarkaneRules

Rank: 2nd Round Draft Pick

Joined: 8/15/2008(UTC)

Applause Given: 209
Applause Received: 350

The moral of this story is to leave nothing to chance.
Circular Arguments: They are a heck of an annoyance
Online wpr  
#8 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:29:26 AM(UTC)
wpr

Rank: Hall of Famer

PackersHome NFL Pick'em - Gold: 2012PackersHome NFL Pick'em - Gold: 2013FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 8/8/2008(UTC)

Applause Given: 2,933
Applause Received: 1,416

Scott Kacsmar can try and piss on my leg but no matter what he says he won't convince me that it is raining.

The call was wrong. It has been affirmed and reaffirmed many times.

His long winded analogy does not show his brilliance only his ignorance and i am ok with that.
"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em." Chesty Puller



UserPostedImage

thanks Post received 1 applause.
DoddPower on 6/28/2013(UTC)
Online wpr  
#9 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:41:44 AM(UTC)
wpr

Rank: Hall of Famer

PackersHome NFL Pick'em - Gold: 2012PackersHome NFL Pick'em - Gold: 2013FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 8/8/2008(UTC)

Applause Given: 2,933
Applause Received: 1,416

Out of curiosity I did a quick check of Scott Kacsmar. he is from Pittsburgh. I am sure he was not the least bit upset that GB beat the Steelers in the SB. I am sure he holds no ill will toward the Packers.
"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em." Chesty Puller



UserPostedImage

Offline steveishere  
#10 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:59:46 AM(UTC)
steveishere

Rank: 2nd Round Draft Pick

FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Gold: 2013

Joined: 7/28/2012(UTC)

Applause Given: 45
Applause Received: 924

http://cdn1.sbnation.com...1211119/refss_medium.gif

I don't buy it. Jennings caught the thing.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
DoddPower on 6/28/2013(UTC)
Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#11 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 2:49:26 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister

Rank: 2nd Round Draft Pick

Joined: 6/12/2010(UTC)

Applause Given: 286
Applause Received: 266

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Lance Easley has stood by the call, as quoted here - link.

And 138 lost their job, but 138 got their job back.

Edit, "Replacement referee Wayne Elliott, who initially defended the call of a touchdown by Seahawks receiver Golden Tate, reluctantly admitted during an interview with Cris Collinsworth and James Brown on this week’s Inside the NFL that the call “probably” should have been an interception."


Easley was the side judge. It was his job to signal the call.

Elliot's job was to make the official ruling. Which he never actually did. They buzzed him for a review immediately and he stuck his head in the box.

When he came out, he said the call was upheld.

But since he never made any official ruling, the side judge's signal of a TD was upheld as an actual ruling.

Elliot, who is responsible for the ruling of his crew and for the ruling of the review, said he "learned the rule by screwing up the rule." in regards to the call being complete or intercepted. He believes it was a catch.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.

Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#12 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 3:19:22 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool

Rank: Legend

Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI

Applause Given: 1,901
Applause Received: 2,097

Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister Go to Quoted Post
Easley was the side judge. It was his job to signal the call.

Elliot's job was to make the official ruling. Which he never actually did. They buzzed him for a review immediately and he stuck his head in the box.

When he came out, he said the call was upheld.

But since he never made any official ruling, the side judge's signal of a TD was upheld as an actual ruling.

Elliot, who is responsible for the ruling of his crew and for the ruling of the review, said he "learned the rule by screwing up the rule." in regards to the call being complete or intercepted. He believes it was a catch.


That quote wasn't in reference to the Fail Mary play, unless I misunderstood the full context of the quote of what you have omitted to cite.

Lance Easley is the one who signaled Touchdown and I haven't heard him back off that at all. The other official signaled incomplete or something and then I think he changed to what Easley signaled. Then the two officials informed the Referee of what happened.

I'm confused here. If the referee went under the hood, why was it reviewed upstairs by the regular replay review people who confirmed the ruling on the field?
UserPostedImage
Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#13 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 3:48:55 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister

Rank: 2nd Round Draft Pick

Joined: 6/12/2010(UTC)

Applause Given: 286
Applause Received: 266

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
That quote wasn't in reference to the Fail Mary play, unless I misunderstood the full context of the quote of what you have omitted to cite.

Lance Easley is the one who signaled Touchdown and I haven't heard him back off that at all. The other official signaled incomplete or something and then I think he changed to what Easley signaled. Then the two officials informed the Referee of what happened.

I'm confused here. If the referee went under the hood, why was it reviewed upstairs by the regular replay review people who confirmed the ruling on the field?


The replay officials signal the ref to review it.

The ref does the actual review.

It is the Refs final responsibility to make any call. The side judge, back judge or umpire's job is to signal the play. The Ref makes the ruling. He will also over rule or confirm based on the replay.

In college, the replay official tells the Ref what to rule. Not so in the NFL.

It isn't Easley's call to make. He signaled TD. But he doesn't rule it a TD. That is Elliotts job.

The guy responsible for the call and the review said the wrong call was made.

Edit. Quote from the article on NFL.com. Pressed about how he now viewed the play, Elliott (who was not in the end zone and did not make the initial call) momentarily hedged before admitting, "I'd probably call interception.

"I learned a rule by screwing up the rule."
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.

Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#14 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 3:51:37 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool

Rank: Legend

Yahoo! Fantasy Football - Gold: 2009FleaFlicker Fantasy Football - Silver: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Silver: 2011ESPN NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2010Yahoo! NCAA March Madness - Bronze: 2013

United States
Joined: 10/13/2006(UTC)
Location: Green Bay, WI

Applause Given: 1,901
Applause Received: 2,097

I guess you're not gonna cite what you're saying. I'm gonna have to stick with what I have heard and read.

Packers shouldn't have even been in that position to lose the game. That first half was horrendous! And it seemed like Sam Shields must have slept with one of the officials daughters or something cuz they had it out for him lol
UserPostedImage
Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#15 Posted : Thursday, June 27, 2013 3:59:38 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister

Rank: 2nd Round Draft Pick

Joined: 6/12/2010(UTC)

Applause Given: 286
Applause Received: 266

ESPN NFCN blog

Here is a better article with video.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.

Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
Zero2Cool on 6/27/2013(UTC)
 
Users browsing this topic
Guest
4 Pages123>»
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2014, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.991 seconds.

Notification

Icon
Error

Tweeter

Recent Topics
13m / Random Babble / wpr

1h / Green Bay Packers Talk / OlHoss1884

1h / Green Bay Packers Talk / luigis

1h / Welcome to our Community! / Zero2Cool

4h / Random Babble / wpr

4h / Random Babble / Smokey

5h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

6h / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Smokey

6h / Green Bay Packers Talk / nyrpack

6h / Green Bay Packers Talk / nyrpack

6h / Green Bay Packers Talk / nyrpack

6h / Super Bowl Talk / Smokey

8h / Green Bay Packers Talk / macbob

10h / Green Bay Packers Talk / yooperfan

16h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Smokey


Copyright © 2006-2014 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.