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Offline wpr  
#1 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:07:35 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
Hostess is betting on a sweet comeback for Twinkies when they return to shelves next month.

The company that went bankrupt after an acrimonious fight with its unionized workers last year is back up and running under new owners and a leaner structure. It says it plans to have Twinkies and other snack cakes back on shelves starting July 15.

Metropoulos & Co. and Apollo bought Twinkies and other Hostess cakes for $410 million.



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Edited by user Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:34:23 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline DakotaT  
#2 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:23:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post


Your link sucks Wayne.
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Offline wpr  
#3 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:34:48 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Your link sucks Wayne.


fixed
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Offline DakotaT  
#4 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:44:02 PM(UTC)
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"Some workers were hired back, but are no longer unionized." Let me guess, they get a 70/30 health care plan and a 3% 401K worthless pension subject to sways in the market caused by the greedy thieves on Wall Street. Gotta love America. But hey, we have our Twinkies back. As Texas would put it, life is good.
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Offline wpr  
#5 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:49:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
"Some workers were hired back, but are no longer unionized." Let me guess, they get a 70/30 health care plan and a 3% 401K worthless pension subject to sways in the market caused by the greedy thieves on Wall Street. Gotta love America. But hey, we have our Twinkies back. As Texas would put it, life is good.


I suppose it is better for them to sit on their butts at home without a job and draw unemployment?
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Offline DakotaT  
#6 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:57:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
I suppose it is better for them to sit on their butts at home without a job and draw unemployment?


No, there should be laws against allowing a company to reorganize with the sole purpose of breaking a union. When the doors opened back up, the labor force should have been fully reinstated.
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Offline wpr  
#7 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 5:45:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
No, there should be laws against allowing a company to reorganize with the sole purpose of breaking a union. When the doors opened back up, the labor force should have been fully reinstated.


If you bothered to read the whole story someone else owns Hostess now. hey did not "break the union" these people bought a name and hired former employees back. That is admirable. The story also said that most of the other junk food makers are not unionized. That means the Hostess workers priced themselves right out of the market. Now that the new employees are not unionized Hostess has a chance to compete in the marketplace. They can't expect to have people pay $5 for a snack just so unions can enforce an artificially higher pay scale.

As for your consistently bashing 401k, stop being such a jerk. (I edited myself.) I don' see you weeping for me or anyone else who is self employed like I am. I have to take money out of my own pocket and set aside for my retirement. But that is ok with you. Why should a lunch bucket guy who may not have even bothered to graduate from high school get a better retirement plan? You want a retirement then do it yourself don't expect someone else to do it for you.
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Offline DakotaT  
#8 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 5:54:44 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
If you bothered to read the whole story someone else owns Hostess now. hey did not "break the union" these people bought a name and hired former employees back. That is admirable. The story also said that most of the other junk food makers are not unionized. That means the Hostess workers priced themselves right out of the market. Now that the new employees are not unionized Hostess has a chance to compete in the marketplace. They can't expect to have people pay $5 for a snack just so unions can enforce an artificially higher pay scale.

As for your consistently bashing 401k, stop being such a jerk. (I edited myself.) I don' see you weeping for me or anyone else who is self employed like I am. I have to take money out of my own pocket and set aside for my retirement. But that is ok with you. Why should a lunch bucket guy who may not have even bothered to graduate from high school get a better retirement plan? You want a retirement then do it yourself don't expect someone else to do it for you.


Actually, I have read up on this. There was mismanagement - meaning fat boys at the top taking too much, and there was overcompensation paid out based on the good years. I agree that unions price their workers to an unsustainable compensation package, but don't insult my intelligence by insinuating the boys at the top of the food chain weren't taking too much.

I too am self employed in part of my working life, and I am also a union millwright. So please don't judge my perspective on this kind of topic, when I am the only one involved in these conversations that sees and lives both sides of the argument. Everyone else is totally one way or the other and is very selfish with his point of view - which is why these arguments never can be discussed reasonably.

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Offline wpr  
#9 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 6:18:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Actually, I have read up on this. There was mismanagement - meaning fat boys at the top taking too much, and there was overcompensation paid out based on the good years. I agree that unions price their workers to an unsustainable compensation package, but don't insult my intelligence by insinuating the boys at the top of the food chain weren't taking too much.

I too am self employed in part of my working life, and I am also a union millwright. So please don't judge my perspective on this kind of topic, when I am the only one involved in these conversations that sees and lives both sides of the argument. Everyone else is totally one way or the other and is very selfish with his point of view - which is why these arguments never can be discussed reasonably.



You can bash the prior management all you want. I don't care. The new owners are not them and your post insinuates they folded the corp only to bust the union then opened the doors once again. That is blatantly wrong. Certainly some companies have done something like that but that is not the case here and you knew that.

Yes I know you have two jobs a union one and a real one. Big Grin but that doesn't mean you are the only one who has worked in a union shop. I have worked for the unions who hire their employees out companies as well. I know you bust your butt to make a life for your family. So do many of us. Don't act holier than anyone else. You are not.

The unions today are just as corrupt as many of the businesses if not more so. They are not there looking out for the little guy. They are only looking out for themselves. I had a customer who was a hard working schmoe. He blacktopped driveways and parking lots. He his son and a couple of guys who he treated like family. What did the union do? They shot at his house at nite. They stole his equipment. They tore up his work. They damaged his trucks. Why? because he didn't pay the union their bride money. They forced him to lay off his employees. his son had to leave and find another job and he had to go work at Home Depot.


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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#10 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2013 7:30:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
"Some workers were hired back, but are no longer unionized." Let me guess, they get a 70/30 health care plan and a 3% 401K worthless pension subject to sways in the market caused by the greedy thieves on Wall Street. Gotta love America. But hey, we have our Twinkies back. As Texas would put it, life is good.


Sounds pretty good to me.

Unions have their place (if I was sarcastic, I'd say that place in in the past hahaha). What you don't seem to be able to grasp, Dakota, is this:

Corporations owe their allegiance to ONE group - the stockholders - NOT the employees, NOT the customers, etc. Usually, of course, it is advantageous to keep harmony with the employees and to keep the customers satisfied, but PRIMARY is the bottom line - profit for the stockholders. Most of the time, they do a pretty good job of that, causing people like you to fly off the handle with your anti-rich rants.

Unions owe their allegiance to ONE group - the employees/membership - NOT the employer, NOT the consumers of the products, etc. Unlike corporations, however, unions do NOT do a very good job of representing the interests of their members. They donate damn near 100% to the Democrats, regardless of what side their membership is on, but that is the LESSER problem. The GREATER problem is illustrated beautifully with this Twinkie thing. The union broke the fundamental biological rule of a parasite - which basically, unions are. They KILLED the host - or in this case Hostess - pun intended hahahaha. So often, unions do just that - demand so much that a company has two choices operate themselves into bankruptcy OR just give up and go out of business. THAT ain't doing a good job for the workers. Compromising - keeping things going in terms of jobs and production is what is needed. Unfortunately, it usually takes BREAKING the union before that compromise can occur.

My First and Best thought when reading this thread title, though is: Take that, you fat ugly pig, Michelle Obama and your idiotic nutrition non-sense. The PEOPLE will HAVE their Twinkies!!!!

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Offline DakotaT  
#11 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 2:39:55 AM(UTC)
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We all owe our current labor laws to unions. What always bothered me about either auditing businesses or preparing their taxes is the complaining of the customer that would go along with the tax bill. And I would always comment that one way the business owner could escape paying so much tax is to compensate their employees better in either wages or benefits. And in almost every situation they felt they were overcompensating their employees already. And this is the fundamental flaw in thinking that brings about poor company moral and a total breakdown in the American workforce. People want security, and our current business model is not providing that anymore and this is plain and simply chalked up to that abomination called greed.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#12 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 7:23:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
We all owe our current labor laws to unions. What always bothered me about either auditing businesses or preparing their taxes is the complaining of the customer that would go along with the tax bill. And I would always comment that one way the business owner could escape paying so much tax is to compensate their employees better in either wages or benefits. And in almost every situation they felt they were overcompensating their employees already. And this is the fundamental flaw in thinking that brings about poor company moral and a total breakdown in the American workforce. People want security, and our current business model is not providing that anymore and this is plain and simply chalked up to that abomination called greed.


It didn't even occur to you that maybe they WERE over-compensating their employees? It should also occur to you that the main aspect of the current business model that is unstable or insecure is employee cost. Part of that, of course, is the damn government with its OSHA and other intrusive regulation, but a large part of it is unions who go way beyond just negotiating for higher pay; They are more than willing to kill the whole process by failing to compromise to the point of bankrupting the business - like the Twinkie/Hostess example.

Yeah, I give unions a LOT of credit historically for forcing the labor laws and for basically creating the strong comfortable working class that sets this country apart from almost everywhere else in the world. But in the last half century or so, two things have happened: the unions have been co-opted by leftist politicians - even on the payroll of the big unions AND unions have gone beyond the bounds of reason to the point where companies simply can't afford to compete if they have union labor. I suppose that sword cuts both ways, and the companies using non-union workers are partly to blame, but it seems a lot more American to let choice and the law of supply and demand prevail rather than having laws forcing workers to be unionized - or do you disagree about that?

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Offline Pack93z  
#13 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 7:27:37 AM(UTC)
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The Unions at one point most definitely helped shape labor laws and had a proper place in the labor pool. But they also got lazy and focused on protecting all workers under the umbrella (IE the lazy); not to mention mismanagement of the union funds; lost most of their credibility and have become nothing but an albatross around the productive workers neck.

Like it or not, the surplus of potential employees has allowed the leverage to shift to the employers at the moment. And unless the dynamic swings back to the employee and cost based sense for the number cruncher's shows that the American work can compete in the labor costs, I don't see it returning to the employees favor anytime soon. Select trades still hold leverage.. but for the majority of factor laborers, there is zero leverage for the most part.

Several factors lead into this from my viewpoint:

- The general work ethic of the American worker has declined.
- The upper management is retaining a larger slice of the profits generated.
- Insurance costs have become unmanageable in terms of cost, and before it is all blamed on Obama, this trend dates back to right around the turn of the century, if not before.
- Importing products crafted with cheaper labor is too cost incentive at the moment, part of the "bad" of a free trade market. $$ rule.
- Economy struggles and the notion that every citizen "has" to own a house.
- Generally, we in America have to own more than we really need and many because they are in competition with thy neighbor.

I am sure we could list dozens more.. but you get the point.

I certainly cannot absolve the fat cats at the top... but they are not the only dynamic causing the problem.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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wpr on 6/24/2013(UTC), Rockmolder on 6/24/2013(UTC)
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#14 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 7:37:45 AM(UTC)
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Good Analysis, pack93. What gets lost in this whole discussion, it seems to me, is that workers - like everybody in this country - have it pretty damn good compared to the rest of the world, compared to historic levels of living standards, etc. A lot of complaint DOESN'T come from the workers themselves, but from the unions - who don't like it that in so many cases, the workers got that well off without unionization. Just look at Walmart hahahaha.

One thing you said that concerns me - maybe because I used to be in the real estate business. It is NOT a bad thing that virtually all workers strive to be homeowners. Historically, and nowadays more than ever, owning a home is cheaper for the same quality level than renting. It seemed to me you were implying that striving for ownership was not a good thing.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#15 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2013 7:53:48 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
- The general work ethic of the American worker has declined.


I credit Unions for this, and also the decline (my opinion) in parenting properly.
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wpr on 6/24/2013(UTC)
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