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Poll Question : Both statements are false. But which is a *worse* error?
Choice Votes Statistics
  "All terrorists are Muslims."
3
50 %
  "All Muslims are terrorists."
3
50 %
  Total 6 100%
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Offline Rockmolder  
#16 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:08:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
I was wondering where you were hahaha. I hope you gave the IRS their share hahahaha.

And it's like you to go AGAINST America and side with whatever group of barbaric shitheads sets themselves up as our enemy this decade. A little question for you guys who like damn Muslims so much: WHY are damn Muslims the enemy of America? The answer is ............... because the God damned Muslims SAY they are our enemy. I didn't make any "bullets go flying around the world" - whatever the hell that even means hahahaha. America didn't say "hey, enough of this bogus shitty excuse of a religion, let's have a jihad against it". Nope. It was the God damned Muslims themselves who declared themselves to be the enemy of America - against freedom and democracy, against Judeo-Christian civilization, against the whole western civilized world for that matter - not to mention against Hindus - basically anybody less backward and barbarous than themselves. Hell, they even make enemies of different branches of themselves - talk about letting bullets and bombs fly around hahahahaha.


Except it was the terrorists who do this and you just pull in the entire Muslim community.

Are Christians all semi-terrorists because the Westboro Baptist Church exists?
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Offline Wade  
#17 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 7:17:27 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Wade, you throw around words like bigotry; Is it bigotry in your eyes if the negativity or prejudice is valid and fact-based? It seems that most of your conclusions and statements are based on your own preconceived notions regarding Muslims. You talk about "equivalent errors" when in fact, it is your own unwarranted assumption that there is even an error.

As I stated previously, the more pertinent numbers and polling would be NOT the admittedly small number of actual perpetrators of acts of terrorism, but the SYMPATHIZERS and Supporters of those perpetrators of acts of terror. I would liken this to an analysis of the population of Wisconsin and the Packers. Obviously, only 53 out of 4 million or whatever actually play football for the Packers. However, the huge huge majority sympathize with and support the 53 actual players. You can justifably conclude that Wisconsin has a Packer supporting population. The percentages are very similar to the percentages with Muslims. Thus, it is very justified to conclude that Muslims are a terrorist sympathizing population. You may not believe it Wade, but the news, recent history, basically THE FACTS say you SHOULD believe it.

I, for one, would be up for a good Crusade hahaha. I bet each new example of Muslim behavior and attitude in the world brings a bigger and bigger percentage of Christians who would agree. Even without considering weapon superiority, throw in a billion or so Muslim-hating Hindus in India, and the numbers look pretty good. Of course, we would never start anything hahaha, but if they want JIHAD, I say BRING IT ON!


1. You *trust* the news for your information? Seriously?? I discovered long ago that the news is no more trustworthy than the average political ad. Which is to say, not at all.

2. Billions of haters? Truly? Have you ever seen a billion people act in hate all at once? Seriously? About the biggest crowds I have ever seen are crowds in St. Peter's Square, and those are on the order of a million at a time. A billion is 1000 times as big as a million, guy. A 1000 times as big.

We all must generalize from sample evidence. But I'm too much a believer in individual choice to believe that billions of people will all individually choose to hate in that way. Be ignorant? Sure. Be complacent in avoiding the evil in their midst? Sure, that, too. But neither ignorance nor complacence are the prerogative of Muslims.

Sure, every act of hate coming from Muslim makes it easier for a Christian to go all Old Testament. But incitement to hate is not, and never will be, a justification for hate.

Merely another occasion to turn the other cheek.

IMO, there are few things more non-Christian than war in the name of religion. Even in the name of ours.

No, especially in the name of ours. The poor damned Muslims after all are stuck with Mohammed as their greatest teacher; and as long as they are, they will be stuck in their ignorance, stuck in their conformity to the human world.

We Christians have no such excuse.





None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#18 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:07:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
Except it was the terrorists who do this and you just pull in the entire Muslim community.

Are Christians all semi-terrorists because the Westboro Baptist Church exists?


I'm not familiar with Westboro Baptist Church, but it sounds like a nice little country place with a sweet-sounding choir.

As I said previously, Rockmolder, the actual perpetrators of terrorist acts are to the Muslim population approximately what the 53 members of the Packers are to the 4 million or so residents of Wisconsin. However, in BOTH cases, it is more than valid to say the HUGE HUGE HUGE majority of each population SUPPORTS/ENTHUSIASTICALLY SYMPATHIZES with the actual doers of the deeds. Therefore, you can call Wisconsin a Packer Nation and Muslims a Terrorist Nation. Does the same apply to your Westboro analogy?

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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#19 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:33:52 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wade Go to Quoted Post
1. You *trust* the news for your information? Seriously?? I discovered long ago that the news is no more trustworthy than the average political ad. Which is to say, not at all.

2. Billions of haters? Truly? Have you ever seen a billion people act in hate all at once? Seriously? About the biggest crowds I have ever seen are crowds in St. Peter's Square, and those are on the order of a million at a time. A billion is 1000 times as big as a million, guy. A 1000 times as big.

We all must generalize from sample evidence. But I'm too much a believer in individual choice to believe that billions of people will all individually choose to hate in that way. Be ignorant? Sure. Be complacent in avoiding the evil in their midst? Sure, that, too. But neither ignorance nor complacence are the prerogative of Muslims.

Sure, every act of hate coming from Muslim makes it easier for a Christian to go all Old Testament. But incitement to hate is not, and never will be, a justification for hate.

Merely another occasion to turn the other cheek.

IMO, there are few things more non-Christian than war in the name of religion. Even in the name of ours.

No, especially in the name of ours. The poor damned Muslims after all are stuck with Mohammed as their greatest teacher; and as long as they are, they will be stuck in their ignorance, stuck in their conformity to the human world.

We Christians have no such excuse.



1. Are you seriously saying you don't BELIEVE the Boston Marathon incident happened? Or the soldier hacked to death in the streets of London? Or 9/11? Or Muslim acts of terrorism too numerous to mention?

2. Whatever the total number of Muslims worldwide is - I've read 600 million and 1.5 billion, it is beyond dispute that the vast majority of them have as a matter of course, set themselves up as the enemy of America - sympathizing/empathizing with the actual perpetrators of the terrorist acts. It's simply their way of life - which is why I refer to them as barbarous and backward. Nobody said anything about billions all congregating in one place for a big hate convention hahaha.

Muslims and individual choice hahahaha - that's the stuff oxymorons are made of. You start having individualized thoughts, much less expressing them in the Muslim world and you're lucky if you just lose body parts - can you say barbarism/backward?

I assume the last part of your reply was basically a Jesus v. Mohammed comparison. The Bible, however - the New Testament - refers to Jesus returning and vanquishing the enemies rather violently. And "going Old Testament" is not an invalid thing either if the enemy makes it necessary.

You do a good job of trying to apply transference to the discussion, but this isn't about Christians. We aren't out there committing almost daily acts of terrorism, and more importantly, we did not set up ourselves as the enemy of another rather large group of people. Most Christians probably are like you, and in fact do turn the other cheek. Even the Crusader assholes such as myself tend to think positive toward individuals of the Muslim persuasion, at least until demonstrated otherwise. It ain't that way among Muslims, however. Among them, the percentages are essentially reversed - only a tiny tiny number of nice people like you, and a huge percentage of zealots who support the terrorists just like we support the Packers.

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Offline Wade  
#20 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:12:05 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
1. Are you seriously saying you don't BELIEVE the Boston Marathon incident happened? Or the soldier hacked to death in the streets of London? Or 9/11? Or Muslim acts of terrorism too numerous to mention?


This is *exactly* the point of the original post. To generalize from a few hundred incidents to a blanket statement about billions of people is *FUCKING SHODDY QUANTITATIVE THINKING*.
Quote:

2. Whatever the total number of Muslims worldwide is - I've read 600 million and 1.5 billion, it is beyond dispute that the vast majority of them have as a matter of course, set themselves up as the enemy of America - sympathizing/empathizing with the actual perpetrators of the terrorist acts. It's simply their way of life - which is why I refer to them as barbarous and backward. Nobody said anything about billions all congregating in one place for a big hate convention hahaha.

Muslims and individual choice hahahaha - that's the stuff oxymorons are made of. You start having individualized thoughts, much less expressing them in the Muslim world and you're lucky if you just lose body parts - can you say barbarism/backward?


So you are saying that Muslims located in Texas or Iowa or New York or Seattle or a hundred thousand other places in the world have to worry about losing body parts? Good grief.

The point is, again, that when you make blanket statements like "it's their way of life", you aren't just lumping the whackos of Al-Queda, Iran, etc. together, you're lumping them with hundreds of millions of people who aren't located in any of those places.

How many Muslims live in the United States? Somewhere between 5 and 8 million. If you truly think that they all celebrate or even "sympathize" with terrorists, you are profoundly ignorant.

I'm not a fan of the Muslim religion. I'm a fundie Christian, after all. I don't think all religions are equivalent. I think some of Mohammed's teachings are whacked. Mohammed to me was just a man. Jesus to me *is* more than a man.

But the fact that Muslims follow Mohammed doesn't make them terrorists, or even whacked. People are more complex than that.

Quote:



I assume the last part of your reply was basically a Jesus v. Mohammed comparison. The Bible, however - the New Testament - refers to Jesus returning and vanquishing the enemies rather violently. And "going Old Testament" is not an invalid thing either if the enemy makes it necessary.



Ah, but that's Jesus's job, not ours. We aren't the ones who are going to be on the throne doing the vanquishing. He is.

And if He thinks we think ourselves superior enough to do His job, there's a good chance He might vanquish us right along with them.

And every time we say "the enemy makes it necessary", The Enemy cheers us closer to the precipice.

Demonizing a quarter to a third of the world's population is not a recipe for solving problems. Demonizing 3-5% of the nation's population is not a recipe for social order. Demonizing that many people just makes the real bastards the winners.

Frankly, if Americans were as serious about terrorism as we claim to be, we'd stop worrying about whether that swarthy bearded fellow next to us in the airport lounge is a terrorist or not and yammering about how the TSA "protects us" and how "air travel is a privilege", and we'd take all that imperial power at our fingertips and seriously hammer the states that sponsor terrorism.

The states that hide behind their Islam and do everything they can to convince people like you that the problem is Islam when all it is barbarism.

Quote:


You do a good job of trying to apply transference to the discussion, but this isn't about Christians. We aren't out there committing almost daily acts of terrorism, and more importantly, we did not set up ourselves as the enemy of another rather large group of people. Most Christians probably are like you, and in fact do turn the other cheek. Even the Crusader assholes such as myself tend to think positive toward individuals of the Muslim persuasion, at least until demonstrated otherwise. It ain't that way among Muslims, however. Among them, the percentages are essentially reversed - only a tiny tiny number of nice people like you, and a huge percentage of zealots who support the terrorists just like we support the Packers.



There are daily acts of lots of horrible things. In a world of several billion people, there are going to be. That doesn't make everyone horrible.

I thank you for again illustrating the point of my original post: when we make broad claims about "everyone" or "almost all" or whatever, we're making really big empirical claims. And we're making them based on small samples that tend to many, many principles of careful empirical thinking.

And, IMO, in so doing, we are committing some of the very idolatry -- namely, the idolatry of our own "human" powers of reason -- that Jesus warns us against again and again. We're claiming to be able to know more about our fellow human beings, and the quality of their sinfulness, than we have the ability to know.

And, after all, isn't that where bigotry comes from in the end? Our ignorance of the degree of our own ignorance?

I'm not sure what you mean by "transference" here. But how is the Christian's belief *not* about that Christian? Recall Romans 12. Which is more important for us? Asserting moral superiority over those who throw bombs? Deciding who should be our enemy? Applying judgmental labels to billions of people we have never met or had a chance to have a single internet exchange with?

Or is it something else?

Is this *fair*? I don't know. Is this holding Christians to a higher standard? Damn straight it is.

IMO, a central "fact" of my Christian belief is my personal recognition that I am far, far, closer to those I would label barbarians than I am to Jesus, and that means I should be worrying about them far less and the state of my own soul far more.

Maybe the percentage of "evil Muslims" is greater than the percentage of "evil Christians." But the reality is that man is not doomed to hell because he is evil, but because he is fallen, because in the sin of his self-idolatry he assumes he can determine what only God can determine.

And, IMO, dealing with our fallenness is far, far more important than dealing with evil. The point of turning the other cheek (which, alas, I'm pretty damn bad at) is not to assume responsibility for the blow that is about to hit it. The point of turning the other cheek is to help remember that *the other guy* is never my biggest enemy.








None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
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Offline wpr  
#21 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 12:50:18 PM(UTC)
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Well since we have somewhat strayed from the original topic I will make a few comments.

TX a part of the hatred that you see in Muslims is their distrust of the West in general and the USA as the leadership of the West. It goes right back to your jest about launching another Crusade. The Crusades were politically based. You can not bring Christ into the heart of anyone by the sword or by governmental edicts.

People today in the Muslim World still remember every single time a Western power tried to usurp authority over them. I think you are right, to a point, when you say IN GENERAL, Muslims at the very least turn a blind eye to the more radical factions. But it is not all of the people. I deal with a number of Muslim people and I talk to them on a daily and weekly basis. I can not determine how many or to what degree they support the general term "terrorism". (One kid bullying anther in school is a form of terrorism.) Before fanatics began to run a muck, the West did not heed the plight of the Muslim World as a whole. They only looked to see what could be done to exploit their resources or how to convert these wayward sons of Abraham. (generalization) All of this is about politics. What the people love is the idea of being a powerful Muslim Nation. What they love is the idea that they will not have to raise their hand and ask permission to travel. To raise a family. To worship as they see fit. They want to be respected for their contribution to the civilized world. Mathematics is a huge part of it. When the West had plunged into the Dark Ages, many of the keys to life as we know it where kept safe in the Muslim World.

What many in the Muslim World hate is what the West represents. Drug abuse, alcohol (another drug) abuse, pornography and so many of the other social ills that are more prominent in the West than in other parts of the world. (It does not mean it does not exist there. It certainly does.) They are more prevalent in the West because of freedom of choice. Question- is it better to not give in to the flesh out of your own free will or because of a government imposed order? Certainly it is better to make the decision on your own. Fundamental Muslims leaders see that free will is failing or has failed in the West and they advocate getting the people lined up so to speak so that they can live a Godly life. That has failed too. As I said you can't force someone to do what is right.

This hate of the West is not just in Islam. There is a large number of people in Russia or China or other nations, EVEN IN THE US who look at the debauchery that is common place and long for a time when sin was not so rampant.

One of the things I have noticed is when speaking to Muslims I tend to hear the same thing year after year, "All the problems in the Mid East would evaporate overnight if the Jews were driven into the sea". So in addition to hating the West for their loose morals and colonialism ways some also hate the West/US for supporting Israel. But that too is all about who has the power. They want it and they can't have it. Can you imagine what would happen if Israel discovered oil in their land? They are drilling out into the Med right now but if they discovered a reserve in the West Bank region the people would go mad.

wade wrote:
How many Muslims live in the United States? Somewhere between 5 and 8 million. If you truly think that they all celebrate or even "sympathize" with terrorists, you are profoundly ignorant.


Everything can be divided into degrees. I personally know several Muslims who were greatly troubled by the events on 9-11. They took no satisfaction from the death of innocent people. One in particular left persecution in what was then Yugoslavia so he did not want to see it in his adopted country. But in another sense there are some who derive a sense of satisfaction that a haughty nation can be humbled at least a little bit for a little while. This is not simply a Muslim issue. There were some so called Christians that said "we" deserved it. And we even see it in sports. When the Bears and Vikings play there are some who like the idea of viking fans suffering after a loss.


wade wrote:
we'd stop worrying about whether that swarthy bearded fellow next to us in the airport lounge is a terrorist or not.


I just flew this weekend. I was a little surprised when an older gentleman asked the man a few seats down from me to watch his bag then got up and left. (I suppose he went to the rest room and then got a snack.) What do the announcements say? Don't watch someone else's stuff and don't leave your stuff unattended. On the way back home a couple of different people left their things and wandered off for 5 -10 min. In today's world it makes you think. Back in the 60s-70s or 80s I would have only wondered if someone was going to steal the package. Now I wonder what is in the package. It is not always racism based. To some degree it is simply being more observant of your surroundings which is not a bad thing to do.

edit- wow I got all "Wade" here in my lengthy reply.

Edited by user Thursday, May 30, 2013 7:54:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#22 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:18:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wade Go to Quoted Post
This is *exactly* the point of the original post. To generalize from a few hundred incidents to a blanket statement about billions of people is *FUCKING SHODDY QUANTITATIVE THINKING*.


So you are saying that Muslims located in Texas or Iowa or New York or Seattle or a hundred thousand other places in the world have to worry about losing body parts? Good grief.

The point is, again, that when you make blanket statements like "it's their way of life", you aren't just lumping the whackos of Al-Queda, Iran, etc. together, you're lumping them with hundreds of millions of people who aren't located in any of those places.

How many Muslims live in the United States? Somewhere between 5 and 8 million. If you truly think that they all celebrate or even "sympathize" with terrorists, you are profoundly ignorant.

I'm not a fan of the Muslim religion. I'm a fundie Christian, after all. I don't think all religions are equivalent. I think some of Mohammed's teachings are whacked. Mohammed to me was just a man. Jesus to me *is* more than a man.

But the fact that Muslims follow Mohammed doesn't make them terrorists, or even whacked. People are more complex than that.



Ah, but that's Jesus's job, not ours. We aren't the ones who are going to be on the throne doing the vanquishing. He is.

And if He thinks we think ourselves superior enough to do His job, there's a good chance He might vanquish us right along with them.

And every time we say "the enemy makes it necessary", The Enemy cheers us closer to the precipice.

Demonizing a quarter to a third of the world's population is not a recipe for solving problems. Demonizing 3-5% of the nation's population is not a recipe for social order. Demonizing that many people just makes the real bastards the winners.

Frankly, if Americans were as serious about terrorism as we claim to be, we'd stop worrying about whether that swarthy bearded fellow next to us in the airport lounge is a terrorist or not and yammering about how the TSA "protects us" and how "air travel is a privilege", and we'd take all that imperial power at our fingertips and seriously hammer the states that sponsor terrorism.

The states that hide behind their Islam and do everything they can to convince people like you that the problem is Islam when all it is barbarism.



There are daily acts of lots of horrible things. In a world of several billion people, there are going to be. That doesn't make everyone horrible.

I thank you for again illustrating the point of my original post: when we make broad claims about "everyone" or "almost all" or whatever, we're making really big empirical claims. And we're making them based on small samples that tend to many, many principles of careful empirical thinking.

And, IMO, in so doing, we are committing some of the very idolatry -- namely, the idolatry of our own "human" powers of reason -- that Jesus warns us against again and again. We're claiming to be able to know more about our fellow human beings, and the quality of their sinfulness, than we have the ability to know.

And, after all, isn't that where bigotry comes from in the end? Our ignorance of the degree of our own ignorance?

I'm not sure what you mean by "transference" here. But how is the Christian's belief *not* about that Christian? Recall Romans 12. Which is more important for us? Asserting moral superiority over those who throw bombs? Deciding who should be our enemy? Applying judgmental labels to billions of people we have never met or had a chance to have a single internet exchange with?

Or is it something else?

Is this *fair*? I don't know. Is this holding Christians to a higher standard? Damn straight it is.

IMO, a central "fact" of my Christian belief is my personal recognition that I am far, far, closer to those I would label barbarians than I am to Jesus, and that means I should be worrying about them far less and the state of my own soul far more.

Maybe the percentage of "evil Muslims" is greater than the percentage of "evil Christians." But the reality is that man is not doomed to hell because he is evil, but because he is fallen, because in the sin of his self-idolatry he assumes he can determine what only God can determine.

And, IMO, dealing with our fallenness is far, far more important than dealing with evil. The point of turning the other cheek (which, alas, I'm pretty damn bad at) is not to assume responsibility for the blow that is about to hit it. The point of turning the other cheek is to help remember that *the other guy* is never my biggest enemy.



First of all, Wade, I appreciate the civil and thorough reply.

I had to look up "fundie", as I had never heard that term before. I guess according to the definition, I fit that label too. I guess also, in a way that is part of the point. Christian religions have a much smaller percentage of "fundies" than Islam, and the "whacked" teachings which that much bigger percentage of them are so dedicated to do not include much about love and tolerance and self-examination like Christianity. IMO, however, you carry some of those uniquely Christian doctrines to a little too much of an extreme. Sometimes, a little bit of "Old Testament" lack of tolerance and ass-kicking of self-proclaimed enemies is in order. One lesser point along those lines, you stated that Jesus sitting on His throne will handle the vanquishing; There is a strong reference also to an army of Christian saints who return to be co-rulers with Him and who take on the forces of the beast - who I think by that time have already vanquished the Muslims hahahaha and defeat them at Armageddon. So if you and I make the cut, we might be doing some vanquishing ourselves hahahaha. Regarding your broad statements about "idolatry of our powers of reason" and identifying sins of others, etc., you do some subtle but pretty significant judging yourself with the standard you hold Christians to, etc. Some "sins" are basically self-evident, and some sinners identify themselves by the fruits of their acts - including but not limited to terrorist bombing. Yes, of course, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", but my particular belief - I guess not substantiated by the Bible, is that God recognizes a hierarchy of sins also, and it has something to do with the inverse of what Jesus said about treatment of other people - the "least of these my brethren" - not to mention, of course, the ones labeled "abomination", etc. Anyway, wiping out a market full of innocent brethren IMO might be a little bit higher on the list of sins.

You get a little bit careless with words at times, and ironically, considering the original premise of your thread, careless with numbers also. I, for example, am scrupulous about saying things like "almost all" - which is hugely different from a blanket statement of "all". You seem to have a problem distinguishing between the truth of the one and the falseness by exception of the other. You speak of American "empirical claims". Where? How? Unless you want to count Puerto Rico and Guam, there basically is no American empire and really never has been. A blanket statement about "billions" of people? Assuming you mean Muslims, the high estimate of the total is 1.5 billion; I've also heard 600 million, and of course, I've said repeatedly "most" or "the great majority" of them - NOT that they are perpetrating acts of terrorism, but that they enthusiastically support those who do - much the same as we enthusiastically support the few who win games for the Packers. 1/4 to 1/3 of the world's population? Assuming again you mean Muslims, 600 million to 1.5 billion is a far cry from 1/4 to 1/3 of 7 billion or so people in the world - no big deal, and I'm not usually one to sweat small details, but you were the one emphasizing poor "quantitative thinking" or whatever. Also, 5 to 8 million Muslims in the U.S. - your figure - it seems a bit high to me, but I'll accept it. However, you go on to state that 5 to 8 million is 3 - 5% of the population, which is now what? 320 million? Do the math hahahahaha. Again, no big deal except that YOU were the one talking about "FUCKING SHODDY QUANTITATIVE THINKING". And demonizing them? I'd say their own support of the terrorists does that.

When I said "transference", I meant your propensity to transfer the discussion to Christians from Muslims - and you certainly expanded on that in the latest post hahaha. You made mention of making enemies of people - not being a very Christian thing to do; Well, who makes an enemy of whom? Muslims, I say again, are our enemy NOT because I say it, NOT because the American government or any Christian group says it, but because the damned Muslims themselves say it - loud and often.

One more thing, going back to Christian doctrine, I don't accept your premise that we - you, I, most Christians, most Americans - are closer in thought, word, and deed to the terrorists than to Jesus. First of all, this is another example of YOU making judgments. Secondly, falling short of perfection and committing a myriad of IMO lower level sins - lower than mass murder and destruction anyway, is a smaller gap than what we do and what we are compared to the deeds of the terrorists - IMO - just to take any judgment angle out of the equation.
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Offline DakotaT  
#23 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:32:02 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
I was wondering where you were hahaha. I hope you gave the IRS their share hahahaha.

And it's like you to go AGAINST America and side with whatever group of barbaric shitheads sets themselves up as our enemy this decade. A little question for you guys who like damn Muslims so much: WHY are damn Muslims the enemy of America? The answer is ............... because the God damned Muslims SAY they are our enemy. I didn't make any "bullets go flying around the world" - whatever the hell that even means hahahaha. America didn't say "hey, enough of this bogus shitty excuse of a religion, let's have a jihad against it". Nope. It was the God damned Muslims themselves who declared themselves to be the enemy of America - against freedom and democracy, against Judeo-Christian civilization, against the whole western civilized world for that matter - not to mention against Hindus - basically anybody less backward and barbarous than themselves. Hell, they even make enemies of different branches of themselves - talk about letting bullets and bombs fly around hahahahaha.


What side are you are always talking about? You and I grew up in very different Americas. You fell for that American Pie crap hook, line, and sinker. I grew up in Reagan's 80's, we knew we were being fed a line of shit and never fell for fake patriotism. Now, back to your off-base point of view, you do realize that America is chock full of shit-head, would be terrorists as well? Yeah, they're called tea partiers without the courage of their convictions, all they need is the right switch flicked to activate them. They have to save us from our awful government, right? Rolling On The Floor Laughing
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Offline Formo  
#24 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:31:04 PM(UTC)
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Holy shit.. This thread topic was a bad idea, Wade. Everybody's off their damn rockers now.
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Offline Rockmolder  
#25 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:42:59 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Formo Go to Quoted Post
Holy shit.. This thread topic was a bad idea, Wade. Everybody's off their damn rockers now.


Not really. Personal attacks are at a minimum. It's as civil as this kind of thread can be, really.
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Offline Formo  
#26 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:45:22 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
Not really. Personal attacks are at a minimum. It's as civil as this kind of thread can be, really.


Yeah.. I'm not talking about personal attacks, though. I'm talking about the batshit crazies this thread attracted. Seriously, and y'all think Bachman/Palin said some crazy shit.. You people should actually read what the hell you are saying!
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#27 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:11:04 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
Well since we have somewhat strayed from the original topic I will make a few comments.

TX a part of the hatred that you see in Muslims is their distrust of the West in general and the USA as the leadership of the West. It goes right back to your jest about launching another Crusade. The Crusades were politically based. You can not bring Christ into the heart of anyone by the sword or by governmental edicts.

People today in the Muslim World still remember every single time a Western power tried to usurp authority over them. I think you are right, to a point, when you say IN GENERAL, Muslims at the very least turn a blind eye to the more radical factions. But it is not all of the people. I deal with a number of Muslim people and I talk to them on a daily and weekly basis. I can not determine how many or to what degree they support the general term "terrorism". (One kid bullying anther in school is a form of terrorism.) Before fanatics began to run a muck, the West did not heed the plight of the Muslim World as a whole. They only looked to see what could be done to exploit their resources or how to convert these wayward sons of Abraham. (generalization) All of this is about politics. What the people love is the idea of being a powerful Muslim Nation. What they love is the idea that they will not have to raise their hand and ask permission to travel. To raise a family. To worship as they see fit. They want to be respected for their contribution to the civilized world. Mathematics is a huge part of it. When the West had plunged into the Dark Ages, many of the keys to life as we know it where kept safe in the Muslim World.

What many in the Muslim World hate is what the West represents. Drug abuse, alcohol (another drug) abuse, pornography and so many of the other social ills that are more prominent in the West than in other parts of the world. (It does not mean it does not exist there. It certainly does.) They are more prevalent in the West because of freedom of choice. Question- is it better to not give in to the flesh out of your own free will or because of a government imposed order? Certainly it is better to make the decision on your own. Fundamental Muslims leaders see that free will is failing or has failed in the West and they advocate getting the people lined up so to speak so that they can live a Godly life. That has failed too. As I said you can't force someone to do what is right.

This hate of the West is not just in Islam. There is a large number of people in Russia or China or other nations, EVEN IN THE US who look at the debauchery that is common place and long for a time when sin was not so rampant.

One of the things I have noticed is when speaking to Muslims I tend to hear the same thing year after year, "All the problems in the Mid East would evaporate overnight if the Jews were driven into the sea". So in addition to hating the West for their loose morals and colonialism ways some also hate the West/US for supporting Israel. But that too is all about who has the power. They want it and they can't have it. Can you imagine what would happen if Israel discovered oil in their land? They are drilling out into the Med right now but if they discovered a reserve in the West Bank region the people would go mad.

[wade quote] How many Muslims live in the United States? Somewhere between 5 and 8 million. If you truly think that they all celebrate or even "sympathize" with terrorists, you are profoundly ignorant.






I would think that any discussion pertaining to Muslims would start by dispensing with the political correctness bullshit and stipulating that Muslims routinely commit acts of terrorism against large numbers of innocent people, including their own kind. I said earlier, it's just their way - which of course, the p c libs refuse to acknowledge. I did expect a little bit better from you, but oh well .....

So the poor misunderstood Muslims hate us going back to the horrible evil - "political" evil done to them in the Crusades? Sheesh! First of all, what exactly do you mean by "political" with regard to the Crusades? It was the Christian world taking back the Holy Land from a bunch of barbarous Muslim savages who were basically the same then as now except then and in that area, they ruled - I supposed making their label "tyrants" instead of "terrorists". It is only in the modern liberal-speak that has infested our schools the past few decades that the Crusades are considered a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. Yeah, I expect the Muslim-loving libs to disagree, but how about you? You mention also hate for western-style drugs, debauchery, porn, etc. Ya think? hahahaha Aside from the curious question of why are there so many reports of Muslim males partaking so heavily of those things in this country, my obvious comeback to that is: who exactly is to blame for that in this country and other western countries? It ain't the Christian conservatives, that's for sure, although I do have to confess to doin' some partakin' of that stuff the libs have wrought in this country. However, you can't have it both ways - piously claim the damn Muslims hate us for that stuff, then turn around and excuse them for doing it. And INCREDIBLY, you cite that attitude about the Jews which is so incidious about the God damned Muslims, and you use it to DEFEND them? You - who is supposed to be at least a lukewarm conservative do that? Shame on you!They - the damned Muslims - are purveyors of GENOCIDE yet you excuse their hate for us because we condemn them and support the object of their genocide, Israel - the only free civil normal democratic nation in the middle east? Oh and then there is OIL hahahaha. The western nations set free the former colonies, found and developed the oil, watched without taking military action as the Muslim regimes nationalized the investments of the oil companies, took no action as the OPEC cartel gouged the western world with higher prices, watched with admiration as the Muslim countries grew fat and rich - while doing very little sharing of the wealth with the Muslim countries not blessed with oil, and to top it off, used the oil profits to finance terrorism against the west. And you use THAT as another of your many excuses of why they hate us. You know what? I DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHY THEY HATE US! They do; They made the mistake of setting themselves up as our enemy; And sooner or later, the threshhold will be reached in the Christian west as well as Hindu countries, and those God damned Muslims will get the jihad they have been asking for. And then the question will be, is hell big enough to accomodate the 600 million or 1.5 billion or whatever God damned Muslims there are (were)?

And your last paragraph, damn straight that's the way it is (the bag on the plane thing)! But let me just ask you, did I actually detect a hint of GUILT in your words for seeing those stinking scumbags that way?

Edited by user Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:22:40 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#28 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:50:22 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
What side are you are always talking about? You and I grew up in very different Americas. You fell for that American Pie crap hook, line, and sinker. I grew up in Reagan's 80's, we knew we were being fed a line of shit and never fell for fake patriotism. Now, back to your off-base point of view, you do realize that America is chock full of shit-head, would be terrorists as well? Yeah, they're called tea partiers without the courage of their convictions, all they need is the right switch flicked to activate them. They have to save us from our awful government, right? Rolling On The Floor Laughing


No, Dakota, I grew up in an era of healthy reality, and you grew up in an era when the education system was sadly infested with the bullshit known as political correctness. Self-haters such as yourself need to be excused for their inverse ethnocentricity, I suppose, because you are merely a product of the sick leftist indoctrination you were subjected to in school.

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Offline wpr  
#29 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:06:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
I would think that any discussion pertaining to Muslims would start by dispensing with the political correctness bullshit and stipulating that Muslims routinely commit acts of terrorism against large numbers of innocent people, including their own kind.


As do people from every single religion.

Quote:
So the poor misunderstood Muslims hate us going back to the horrible evil - "political" evil done to them in the Crusades? Sheesh! First of all, what exactly do you mean by "political" with regard to the Crusades?


Every organized use of arms is a political solution. Almost never does one army move without the consent or the approval of their leadership. (Both national and religious leaders) Even when the use of arms springs up from the masses (Like French and Russian Revolutions) it is still politically based.
Quote:


It was the Christian world taking back the Holy Land from a bunch of barbarous Muslim savages who were basically the same then as now except then and in that area, they ruled –


How can the French, English or Italians “take back” that which they never possessed previously? Jesus does not look for mankind to enforce by force of arms.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Quote:
It is only in the modern liberal-speak that has infested our schools the past few decades that the Crusades are considered a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. Yeah, I expect the Muslim-loving libs to disagree, but how about you?


The Crusades like all wars had atrocities committed on both sides. The Europeans were particularly cruel at times. I do not approve of their actions. See John 18:36 above.

Quote:
You mention also hate for western-style drugs, debauchery, porn, etc. Ya think? hahahaha Aside from the curious question of why are there so many reports of Muslim males partaking so heavily of those things in this country, my obvious comeback to that is: who exactly is to blame for that in this country and other western countries?


Everyone is responsible for their actions. I doubt the percent of Muslim males in the West is any higher than it is for others who participate in these actives. I was actually speaking about these items as they make their way into THEIR countries. But they do not like it where ever it may be found. Based on your argument does this mean you are for it?

Quote:
It ain't the Christian conservatives, that's for sure, although I do have to confess to doin' some partakin' of that stuff the libs have wrought in this country. However, you can't have it both ways - piously claim the damn Muslims hate us for that stuff, then turn around and excuse them for doing it.


Never did I say I excuse them or anyone for any action. I simply pointed out a few of the reasons they hate Westerners.

Quote:
And INCREDIBLY, you cite that attitude about the Jews which is so incidious about the God damned Muslims, and you use it to DEFEND them?


I do not defend any of their anti-Semitic actions. Actually Semitic is a misnomer. It means “Son of Shem”. Nearly the entire region is a decedent of Shem. I merely stated that no matter what the problem is, they blame Israel.

Quote:

You - who is supposed to be at least a lukewarm conservative do that? Shame on you!


When it comes to religious beliefs I am probably more conservative than you are. Women should have long hair and not wear pants. Men should have moderately short hair. Neither should dress provocatively. I do not wear shorts in public. My shirts have sleeves. I do not drink or smoke. I try to not curse (Although this site has pushed me to the limits at times.) or take the Lord’s name in vain. We use to worship 3 times a week. As our congregation grew older we have changed it to twice a week. I think most if not all organized religion is manmade and does not serve the Lord. I do not believe in a Trinity.

Quote:
They - the damned Muslims - are purveyors of GENOCIDE yet you excuse their hate for us because we condemn them and support the object of their genocide, Israel - the only free civil normal democratic nation in the middle east?


See above I do not support their actions. I simply pointed out where their hate comes from.

Quote:
Oh and then there is OIL hahahaha. The western nations set free the former colonies, found and developed the oil, watched without taking military action as the Muslim regimes nationalized the investments of the oil companies, took no action as the OPEC cartel gouged the western world with higher prices, watched with admiration as the Muslim countries grew fat and rich - while doing very little sharing of the wealth with the Muslim countries not blessed with oil, and to top it off, used the oil profits to finance terrorism against the west. And you use THAT as another of your many excuses of why they hate us. You know what? I DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHY THEY HATE US! They do;


The West set their colonies free not because they were kind. They did so only when they had to. It became too difficult to maintain any of these empires by force of arms.

Quote:
They made the mistake of setting themselves up as our enemy; And sooner or later, the threshhold will be reached in the Christian west as well as Hindu countries, and those God damned Muslims will get the jihad they have been asking for. And then the question will be, is hell big enough to accomodate the 600 million or 1.5 billion or whatever God damned Muslims there are (were)?


My old minister once said something I found profound. Hell was not created for man. It was created for Lucifer and his fallen angels. Only a small number of men will end up in hell. He is our advocate and died for all of our sins. If there is ANY redeemable attribute in ANY person he will find a way to exonerate them. His blood is THAT precious.

Quote:
And your last paragraph, damn straight that's the way it is (the bag on the plane thing)! But let me just ask you, did I actually detect a hint of GUILT in your words for seeing those stinking scumbags that way?


I have no guilt in any of my statements. Then or now. I went back and corrected how I posted Wade’s comments. My last comment was that it is not wrong for people to be more observant than they were in the past. It doesn’t matter what the color of the skin of the people around them.
"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em." Chesty Puller



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Offline dfosterf  
#30 Posted : Thursday, May 30, 2013 9:12:10 PM(UTC)
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Since I got shot at by the Israeli's in '75 while helping to clear the Suez, having been in Lebanon a few years later when 241 men from my unit were killed, having two tours of duty in Iraq, having been shot by some Muslim (In the hand, toy-wound, but I'm making a point, lol)

I have an opinion.

These people are indoctrinated and brain-washed for various reasons, mostly having to do with the continued greed and corruption of the "leadership" they have been exposed to their entire lifetime. They are simply the product of human nature. I see it in here on a much lesser scale with the Obama suck-up-apologists. Product of the environment. You get on the ground, all you good Wisconsin people would give your life to save some good towel-head from some bad one. Fact. They and we are all just humans trying to live a good life. Some are fools there. We have them here too, just not that pissed, not knowing what a true- bitch life can be. The terrorists are mostly thinking people that see the tragedy and decide to do something about it, as best they can. You friggin' isolationists need to realize they ALL look to America to help solve this shit, INCLUDING THE TERRORISTS THEMSELVES-- think about that-- this is the modern days, they watch American tv--- they are all American in some small sense.... Small example- WE COULD JUST KILL ALL OF THEM, ya know- WW2 vets got nothin' on me and the brave men and women being placed in practically untenable situations thanks mostly to all the PC bullshit we have.

Gerald Ford once called my unit a band of murderers and had it disbanded. US Marines, selected Marines for their temperament, mostly. We saved lives every chance we had, and that was a lot of people. We transported, we airlifted, we intimidated bad-doers with voice, volume, enthusiasm, bull-shit, WHATEVER. The President called me a murderer. One day 20 people needed killed. The need was fulfilled. Ford freaked out. Fucking REMFS. We got a new president, and he apologized, directly, individually. This is the kind of thanks you get being on the line. Criminal or hero, dependent upon the HNIC. My artsy-fartsy uncle caught that description of me and my buds, informed my father of it, and they never spoke to one another again, after the argument. My dad knew how we rolled, my uncle had no fucking clue.

You used to be able shoot all in front of you. That is exponentially more safe than the having to discern who, what,where and when you can discharge your weapon, decided upon by some REMF. I cannot believe you people send our people into harm's way under those rules of engagement. I have to conclude you do not really give a fuck, notwithstanding the brown-nosing come memorial day, veteran's day, etc. I just wish you arm-chair philosophists could spend a few days where the rubber hits the road without the expense of getting there or out of there.


"These people have been lying, cheating, stealing and killing one another since before Christ walked the planet, and they sent me you" ( circa 1960's) ) (fng, new guy)

The introductory statement given to my father when he hit the Pakistani embassy by the ambassador on his first assignment to investigate waste, fraud and abuse as regards the aid America was giving Pakistan. My father (laughingly) told me that one day when he became the big cheese. I spent a summer in Pakistan and India when I was 10.





I don't know what you people think deep-down, but I would do it all again, including the marriages lost, the friends killed, the killing business... all of it... those people needed my help, and still do, so I pray that people just like me ( or better than me) are afforded the opportunity to give it, and yes, they must bring a rifle- I didn't make those places.... I don't know of anyone in here that has as much personal investment in this topic as I...

Edited by user Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:11:10 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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