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Poll Question : Both statements are false. But which is a *worse* error?
Choice Votes Statistics
  "All terrorists are Muslims."
3
50 %
  "All Muslims are terrorists."
3
50 %
  Total 6 100%
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Offline Wade  
#1 Posted : Monday, May 27, 2013 6:31:10 PM(UTC)
Wade

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Okay...here goes...I asked a very similar question on a recent final exam...
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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Offline wpr  
#2 Posted : Monday, May 27, 2013 6:46:12 PM(UTC)
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wrong is wrong is wrong. You can't say one is "better" because the wrong is "less" wrong.
"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em." Chesty Puller



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thanks Post received 1 applause.
Pack93z on 5/27/2013(UTC)
Offline Wade  
#3 Posted : Monday, May 27, 2013 8:13:24 PM(UTC)
Wade

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Ah, okay. But I was trying to get beyond the "sin" argument. (IMO, we're all fallen, after all, regardless of which particular wrong we do. So it doesn't matter whether we have these two particular bad beliefs or not; we're each going to have others that serve to damn us.)

So let me try to rephrase the poll question in a way that you can make a choice: which of these two "wrong beliefs" has worse consequences?
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#4 Posted : Monday, May 27, 2013 8:40:03 PM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker

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What is your point in bringing this up?

Why not change "all" to most? Then the first one is true. How about changing the second question to "most Muslims are sympathetic to terrorists"? then that one is true also.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline wpr  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, May 28, 2013 5:02:08 AM(UTC)
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Taking the "sin" issue out, this is the same argument they like to use in movies. "Choose the person who person I will kill next." Or I had this one in philosophy class. "Is is acceptable to kill one person in order for everyone else to survive"? (The old and flawed greater good philosophy.)

The best answer is "No". I won't participate in it.

I told my assoc prof back then I wouldn't bite on his "loaded" question and took a zero for that question on the test and I won't do so now either.

When looking at your revised question I still don't want to say which has the worst consequences. Is it worse to to make a people angry to the point of riot or is it worse to intentionally make someone cry? I won't distinguish. Intentionally accepting/participating in a lie is wrong no matter the degree.

"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em." Chesty Puller



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Offline Rockmolder  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, May 28, 2013 6:55:51 AM(UTC)
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I guess I'll play, Wade.

Let's go with option A, then.

Not because it's any more right, but because the quantity of people in that first statement is quite a bit less.

Next to that, that statement would call terrorists something unoffensive for the reasonable mind, while option B would label millions of innocent people terrorists.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:50:18 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
I guess I'll play, Wade.

Let's go with option A, then.

Not because it's any more right, but because the quantity of people in that first statement is quite a bit less.

Next to that, that statement would call terrorists something unoffensive for the reasonable mind, while option B would label millions of innocent people terrorists.


Oh the sickness of political correctness hahaha. First of all, who cares if you call terrorists something offensive? Second, and more significant, do you really think a "reasonable mind" would find it unoffensive to be called a member of a barbarous and backward false religion? Third, you got it right in a literal sense, I suppose - probably if you tried hard, you could dig up "millions of innocent people" from among 600 million or 1.5 billion (I've read both figures) Muslims.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:51:22 AM(UTC)
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I got this email, and this seems like a nice place to post it ......



Investment Opportunity ...



Thought you might want to consider getting on board early.



A British Engineer just started a business in Afghanistan.

He's making land mines that look like prayer mats.



It's doing well. He says it is a booming business and prophets are going through the roof.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline Rockmolder  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:14:27 AM(UTC)
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Let's be honest here, though. With posts like that, you're pretty much a terrorist sympathiser from their point of view.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:16:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
Let's be honest here, though. With posts like that, you're pretty much a terrorist sympathiser from their point of view.


I look at things from a very realistic pro-American American point of view. Simply put, there is obvious good and obvious evil in the world. WE - America - represent Good. Muslims represent evil. I know you are not American - Dutch or Danish or one of those brands of European, but even you should be able to look at the world in a halfway realistic way and come to the same conclusion. If you can't handle that, then just sit back and wait for Sharia Law to arrive at YOUR location. Maybe then you will be able to assess things realistically.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Offline Wade  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:52:34 AM(UTC)
Wade

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Sigh.

# of terrorists in the world? Perhaps a few hundreds of thousands. Probably at least an order of magnitude less.

# of Muslims in the world? Over 2 billion.

% of world Muslims that would be (mistakenly) adjudged terrorists under first statement: between 1/100th of 1% and 1/1000th of 1%.

% of world Muslims that would be (mistakenly) adjudged terrorists under second statement: 100%.

Why did I post this poll? Why did I put this on a test? Because it points out the particular ill of quantitative illiteracy. These are not equivalent errors.

Both statements justify bigotry and are used to justify bigotry-inspired actions. Both therefore both are "bad". Conceded.

But when we act upon the second belief, the scale of our bigotry (and the scale of the actions we would likely take because of our bigotry) increases by between 4 and 5 orders of magnitude.

Wayne, the point is not that the "smaller" wrong of the first belief is "right." The point is that a wrong of the second type effectively allows repetition of each of the first wrongs by 10,000 to 100,000 times. And that, IMNSHO, is a bigger wrong.

And, no, tex, I do not believe that most of those 2 billion Muslims are sympathetic toward terrorism, either. Any more than I believe that most of today's Christians would be sympathetic to another Crusade.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline wpr  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, May 29, 2013 11:21:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wade Go to Quoted Post
Sigh.


Wayne, the point is not that the "smaller" wrong of the first belief is "right." The point is that a wrong of the second type effectively allows repetition of each of the first wrongs by 10,000 to 100,000 times. And that, IMNSHO, is a bigger wrong.



Wade I knew what you were looking for. I didn't want to play under such narrow constraints. I chose not to quantify the wrong but to simply state both are wrong. And as such because one is smaller doesn't make it better.

It reminds me of the story of the guy who baked two pans of brownies. He put a half cup of draino in one batch and a teaspoon of rattlesnake venom in the other. Which one would you want to eat?

Trying to chose the lesser of two evils is why the world is the way it is today. Instead of choosing the smaller wrong I say let's throw both out and chose that which is right instead.

Yes I am being a pain in the rear. I can live with it.
"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em." Chesty Puller



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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, May 29, 2013 11:22:13 AM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker

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Originally Posted by: wade Go to Quoted Post
Sigh.

# of terrorists in the world? Perhaps a few hundreds of thousands. Probably at least an order of magnitude less.

# of Muslims in the world? Over 2 billion.

% of world Muslims that would be (mistakenly) adjudged terrorists under first statement: between 1/100th of 1% and 1/1000th of 1%.

% of world Muslims that would be (mistakenly) adjudged terrorists under second statement: 100%.

Why did I post this poll? Why did I put this on a test? Because it points out the particular ill of quantitative illiteracy. These are not equivalent errors.

Both statements justify bigotry and are used to justify bigotry-inspired actions. Both therefore both are "bad". Conceded.

But when we act upon the second belief, the scale of our bigotry (and the scale of the actions we would likely take because of our bigotry) increases by between 4 and 5 orders of magnitude.

Wayne, the point is not that the "smaller" wrong of the first belief is "right." The point is that a wrong of the second type effectively allows repetition of each of the first wrongs by 10,000 to 100,000 times. And that, IMNSHO, is a bigger wrong.

And, no, tex, I do not believe that most of those 2 billion Muslims are sympathetic toward terrorism, either. Any more than I believe that most of today's Christians would be sympathetic to another Crusade.



Wade, you throw around words like bigotry; Is it bigotry in your eyes if the negativity or prejudice is valid and fact-based? It seems that most of your conclusions and statements are based on your own preconceived notions regarding Muslims. You talk about "equivalent errors" when in fact, it is your own unwarranted assumption that there is even an error.

As I stated previously, the more pertinent numbers and polling would be NOT the admittedly small number of actual perpetrators of acts of terrorism, but the SYMPATHIZERS and Supporters of those perpetrators of acts of terror. I would liken this to an analysis of the population of Wisconsin and the Packers. Obviously, only 53 out of 4 million or whatever actually play football for the Packers. However, the huge huge majority sympathize with and support the 53 actual players. You can justifably conclude that Wisconsin has a Packer supporting population. The percentages are very similar to the percentages with Muslims. Thus, it is very justified to conclude that Muslims are a terrorist sympathizing population. You may not believe it Wade, but the news, recent history, basically THE FACTS say you SHOULD believe it.

I, for one, would be up for a good Crusade hahaha. I bet each new example of Muslim behavior and attitude in the world brings a bigger and bigger percentage of Christians who would agree. Even without considering weapon superiority, throw in a billion or so Muslim-hating Hindus in India, and the numbers look pretty good. Of course, we would never start anything hahaha, but if they want JIHAD, I say BRING IT ON!
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Offline DakotaT  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, May 29, 2013 2:02:03 PM(UTC)
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Texas, It's people like you that keep the bombs and bullets flying throughout the world. You're just simply a dumbass, with all do respect of course.

Been working seven 12's lately. I'm way too tired and grouchy to give you boys the right answers, pun intended.
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thanks Post received 1 applause.
DoddPower on 5/30/2013(UTC)
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, May 29, 2013 4:58:22 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Texas, It's people like you that keep the bombs and bullets flying throughout the world. You're just simply a dumbass, with all do respect of course.

Been working seven 12's lately. I'm way too tired and grouchy to give you boys the right answers, pun intended.


I was wondering where you were hahaha. I hope you gave the IRS their share hahahaha.

And it's like you to go AGAINST America and side with whatever group of barbaric sh*theads sets themselves up as our enemy this decade. A little question for you guys who like damn Muslims so much: WHY are damn Muslims the enemy of America? The answer is ............... because the God damned Muslims SAY they are our enemy. I didn't make any "bullets go flying around the world" - whatever the hell that even means hahahaha. America didn't say "hey, enough of this bogus sh*tty excuse of a religion, let's have a jihad against it". Nope. It was the God damned Muslims themselves who declared themselves to be the enemy of America - against freedom and democracy, against Judeo-Christian civilization, against the whole western civilized world for that matter - not to mention against Hindus - basically anybody less backward and barbarous than themselves. Hell, they even make enemies of different branches of themselves - talk about letting bullets and bombs fly around hahahahaha.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
 
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