RaiderPride
14 years ago

It's always interesting to see that the QB who digs his team into a hole and finally gets them out of that same hole gets all the praise, while the QB who plays consistently well is taken for granted.

Not saying that that's totally the case here, but Ben throws quite a few interceptions to TDs and, when he finally takes his team back, he gets all the praise. Not the vaunted defense that stops the other team, giving Ben 4 drives to mount a comeback, but the offense, which finally scores after multiple failed drives.

Just for some reference, their offense was the 22nd in the league last year, with the passing game ranking 17th. To me, that means you can't move the ball and shows that you've been riding the coattail of your defense quite effectively. Just like Terry Bradshaw.

Rodgers, on the other hand, let our offense quite effectively, while having about the same problems as the Steelers. Bad o-line, ours being a bit worse, but good receiving core, ours being a bit better. Problem is, he didn't have the nr. 1 ranked defense, so they didn't win any play-off games for him. They actually let a lot of comeback games slip away.

They actually worked against us more than with us, but that's a whole different story.

I can imagine that that isn't everything, though, but next to all of that, Rodgers has more impressive statistics himself and his throws and reads look a lot better and cleaner. Ben is a tank, he won't go down and maybe Rodgers doesn't make great pre-snap reads, but I can't imagine that you'd take Ben over Rodgers for just those reasons.

I don't believe in magic intangibles. Winning is not in your blood, or something.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



+1

"Rockmolder" wrote:



Rock is very quickly building a reputation on this site as a wise and brilliant contributor. Not that he was not before. It is just solid points, right or wrong is up to debate? Just continual solid posts that are a good read.

I agree Zombie

+1 also.

Your +1 gave him 99.... I am honored to follow your's up to put Rock in the 3 didget applaud mark.
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Rockmolder
14 years ago

It's always interesting to see that the QB who digs his team into a hole and finally gets them out of that same hole gets all the praise, while the QB who plays consistently well is taken for granted.

Not saying that that's totally the case here, but Ben throws quite a few interceptions to TDs and, when he finally takes his team back, he gets all the praise. Not the vaunted defense that stops the other team, giving Ben 4 drives to mount a comeback, but the offense, which finally scores after multiple failed drives.

Just for some reference, their offense was the 22nd in the league last year, with the passing game ranking 17th. To me, that means you can't move the ball and shows that you've been riding the coattail of your defense quite effectively. Just like Terry Bradshaw.

Rodgers, on the other hand, let our offense quite effectively, while having about the same problems as the Steelers. Bad o-line, ours being a bit worse, but good receiving core, ours being a bit better. Problem is, he didn't have the nr. 1 ranked defense, so they didn't win any play-off games for him. They actually let a lot of comeback games slip away.

They actually worked against us more than with us, but that's a whole different story.

I can imagine that that isn't everything, though, but next to all of that, Rodgers has more impressive statistics himself and his throws and reads look a lot better and cleaner. Ben is a tank, he won't go down and maybe Rodgers doesn't make great pre-snap reads, but I can't imagine that you'd take Ben over Rodgers for just those reasons.

I don't believe in magic intangibles. Winning is not in your blood, or something.

"porky88" wrote:



Again, those stats are all cute, but they're stats. They're there for guidance, but I'm not making a final decision when I can watch the two players play and come to a final conclusion using my eyes. If you believe Rodgers, who has never played in the postseason yet is better than Ben, then that's obviously your view. It's based solely on stats though which I don't believe is end all or tell all. The best stats don't always = championships. They help, but again, nothing is ever constant. Football is and never will be that easy.

Players that play well on the big stage like a Favre, Brady, Manning, Brees (tonight) and yes, a Ben Roethlisberger have that extra "something" that separates them from a player like a Matt Schaub.

Aaron Brooks in 2002 and 2003 averaged 25 touchdowns, 3,500-plus yards. Keep in mind, I believe it was in this exact same offense. Is he on a similar level as say Aaron Rodgers though? Of course not because of things that are shown when they play. A few things worth noting are: Rodgers reads defenses better, makes better decisions, and I think he's a better leader. On the bookend of those seasons, Brooks had some nice numbers as well. That was it though.

Ben only has topped those numbers in one season, but so has Rodgers. You really think Brooks is a better QB than Ben Roethlisberger? That's what the numbers say, but again, numbers are never bulletproof. Rodgers is only in his second year and will have his second solid season. In fact, he's on pace to have an amazing season.

Roetherlisger had 32 touchdowns, 11 INTs, over 3,000 yards and completed 65% of his passes. His QB rating was 104.1. His team won ten games. This was in 2007. He's on pace to throw over 4,000 yards this season and 25 touchdown passes. Only 15 INTs which isn't that bad. If he keeps up this pace, that's his second "stat" year for you to wrap your head around. Ironically, the same as Rodgers.

Ben is only 27 which is two years older than Rodgers. There is still along ways to go for both of them.

It's almost like an insult in your view that someone would put Ben ahead of Rodgers. I'm not saying Ben is a much better QB than Rodgers or that it's not close. I think it is.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



We're obviously not going to agree on this one. Lol.

Let me start by saying that Big Ben is not a bad QB. He's obviously one of the better ones in the league.

That said, even without stats, I don't think he's as impressive as Rodgers. Again, he's a tank, and won't go down that easily, but that's all he has over Rodgers, if you ask me.

He throws way more wobbly balls than Rodgers, he makes more ill-adviced throws, he has more problems with reading the defense than Rodgers does....

And of course I don't think that Aaron Brooks is a better QB than either one. You have to find some middle ground between stats and how a QB plays. Brooks was somewhat impressive, though, in 2003.

I don't know what you want to go with to make Roethlisberger a better QB than Rodgers, other than play-off wins. Maybe we'll just have to keep on disagreeing there, though, as I put that feat mainly on their amazing defense.

And thanks for nr. 100, RP, lol. You know, it's about time that you'd do a member interview. :thumbleft:
zombieslayer
14 years ago



Rock is very quickly building a reputation on this site as a wise and brilliant contributor. Not that he was not before. It is just solid points, right or wrong is up to debate? Just continual solid posts that are a good read.

I agree Zombie

+1 also.

Your +1 gave him 99.... I am honored to follow your's up to put Rock in the 3 didget applaud mark.

"RaiderPride" wrote:



Yes, Rock is quickly becoming one of my favorite posters. Not that I always agree with him, but because no matter what his stance is, there's always some wisdom behind it. Plus, he can write.
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zombieslayer
14 years ago

I'll take it a step further. Anyone who says Eli Manning or Big Ben are better QBs than Drew Brees needs to be slapped upside their head.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Weird that I said this before the Pats game. I've said before that Tom Brady is hands down the best player of the 00s. For Brees to take Brady over his knee and spank him like he did last night, Brees may become the best player of the 10s.
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DakotaT
14 years ago

I'll take it a step further. Anyone who says Eli Manning or Big Ben are better QBs than Drew Brees needs to be slapped upside their head.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Weird that I said this before the Pats game. I've said before that Tom Brady is hands down the best player of the 00s. For Brees to take Brady over his knee and spank him like he did last night, Brees may become the best player of the 10s.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Brady is ahead of Peyton Manning for the 2000s? Wow, that one is shocking. I actually enjoy this topic immensely, and it boils down to this: you have the guys with the rings who effectively drove their limos to championships - Montana, Bradshaw, Brady, Young, K. Anderson. Then you have your pure passer guys like P Manning, Favre, Marino, Elway, Fouts, and Unitas.

What I find awesome is that I lived while all these guys played except Unitas.

Zombie, I think Brady is given too much credit, but I prefer the rocket arm guys to those guys that benifited from having a great defense year after year.
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Rockmolder
14 years ago

I'll take it a step further. Anyone who says Eli Manning or Big Ben are better QBs than Drew Brees needs to be slapped upside their head.

"DakotaT" wrote:



Weird that I said this before the Pats game. I've said before that Tom Brady is hands down the best player of the 00s. For Brees to take Brady over his knee and spank him like he did last night, Brees may become the best player of the 10s.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Brady is ahead of Peyton Manning for the 2000s? Wow, that one is shocking. I actually enjoy this topic immensely, and it boils down to this: you have the guys with the rings who effectively drove their limos to championships - Montana, Bradshaw, Brady, Young, K. Anderson. Then you have your pure passer guys like P Manning, Favre, Marino, Elway, Fouts, and Unitas.

What I find awesome is that I lived while all these guys played except Unitas.

Zombie, I think Brady is given too much credit, but I prefer the rocket arm guys to those guys that benifited from having a great defense year after year.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Wow. That is one bold statement there. Steve Young, Joe Montana, Tom Brady and Ken Anderson in the same category as Terry Bradshaw and Ben Roethlisberger.

I wonder where you'd put Bart Starr. Great passer, but that amazing O-line, combined with a great defense and running game helped him an awfull lot.

EDIT : Lol, Zombie. We've sure come a long way since me getting butthurt in that guns thread.
DakotaT
14 years ago

I'll take it a step further. Anyone who says Eli Manning or Big Ben are better QBs than Drew Brees needs to be slapped upside their head.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



Weird that I said this before the Pats game. I've said before that Tom Brady is hands down the best player of the 00s. For Brees to take Brady over his knee and spank him like he did last night, Brees may become the best player of the 10s.

"DakotaT" wrote:



Brady is ahead of Peyton Manning for the 2000s? Wow, that one is shocking. I actually enjoy this topic immensely, and it boils down to this: you have the guys with the rings who effectively drove their limos to championships - Montana, Bradshaw, Brady, Young, K. Anderson. Then you have your pure passer guys like P Manning, Favre, Marino, Elway, Fouts, and Unitas.

What I find awesome is that I lived while all these guys played except Unitas.

Zombie, I think Brady is given too much credit, but I prefer the rocket arm guys to those guys that benifited from having a great defense year after year.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Wow. That is one bold statement there. Steve Young, Joe Montana, Tom Brady and Ken Anderson in the same category as Terry Bradshaw and Ben Roethlisberger.

I wonder where you'd put Bart Starr. Great passer, but that amazing O-line, combined with a great defense and running game helped him an awfull lot.

EDIT : Lol, Zombie. We've sure come a long way since me getting butthurt in that guns thread.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Starr goes in with Montana and the rest. It really boils down to did the quarterback elevate everyone around him, or put the team on his back; or was everything in place for him to succeed. Which quarterbacks lead the wins coming from behind in the fourth quarter. That is a good place to start looking for your special quarterbacks.
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zombieslayer
14 years ago



Brady is ahead of Peyton Manning for the 2000s? Wow, that one is shocking. I actually enjoy this topic immensely, and it boils down to this: you have the guys with the rings who effectively drove their limos to championships - Montana, Bradshaw, Brady, Young, K. Anderson. Then you have your pure passer guys like P Manning, Favre, Marino, Elway, Fouts, and Unitas.

What I find awesome is that I lived while all these guys played except Unitas.

Zombie, I think Brady is given too much credit, but I prefer the rocket arm guys to those guys that benifited from having a great defense year after year.

"DakotaT" wrote:



Manning is better in regular season but Brady, like Montana, becomes a monster in postseason. Plus like it or not, Manning had better people to work with up until 2007 where Tom Brady blew it.

Manning had the #1 D before and blew it. The past five years, the Colts D has been #1,2,3,7,23. That's 4 of the past five years in the top 10 and 3 in the top 3.

Brady had similar experiences in the early 2000s when the Patriots were the dominant team and Brady vs Manning in the Playoffs, Brady always had the upper hand.

Montana threw 10 TDs in his 4 SBs and 0 INTs. He was near perfect. I don't see how you can say he rode a limo to it.

Now Marino got the shaft. He never had the D and took teams to the Playoffs who often didn't belong there so he never got the recognition he deserved. I know lots of people love to hate the guy but I'm just talking football, not personality.

Fouts was another guy who got the shaft as I've often seen him play on 8-8 teams because they'd have the best O but the worst D. When Marino came along, Fouts became a footnote as Marino shattered everything Fouts did.

Unitas was before my time.
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DakotaT
14 years ago



Brady is ahead of Peyton Manning for the 2000s? Wow, that one is shocking. I actually enjoy this topic immensely, and it boils down to this: you have the guys with the rings who effectively drove their limos to championships - Montana, Bradshaw, Brady, Young, K. Anderson. Then you have your pure passer guys like P Manning, Favre, Marino, Elway, Fouts, and Unitas.

What I find awesome is that I lived while all these guys played except Unitas.

Zombie, I think Brady is given too much credit, but I prefer the rocket arm guys to those guys that benifited from having a great defense year after year.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Manning is better in regular season but Brady, like Montana, becomes a monster in postseason. Plus like it or not, Manning had better people to work with up until 2007 where Tom Brady blew it.

Manning had the #1 D before and blew it. The past five years, the Colts D has been #1,2,3,7,23. That's 4 of the past five years in the top 10 and 3 in the top 3.

Brady had similar experiences in the early 2000s when the Patriots were the dominant team and Brady vs Manning in the Playoffs, Brady always had the upper hand.

Montana threw 10 TDs in his 4 SBs and 0 INTs. He was near perfect. I don't see how you can say he rode a limo to it.

Now Marino got the shaft. He never had the D and took teams to the Playoffs who often didn't belong there so he never got the recognition he deserved. I know lots of people love to hate the guy but I'm just talking football, not personality.

Fouts was another guy who got the shaft as I've often seen him play on 8-8 teams because they'd have the best O but the worst D. When Marino came along, Fouts became a footnote as Marino shattered everything Fouts did.

Unitas was before my time.

"DakotaT" wrote:



Obviously, you are heavily influenced by the guy holding the Lombardi at the end of the year and there is merit in that no doubt. So where does Eli fall?

I had no idea the Colts defenses ranked that high.
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zombieslayer
14 years ago
Well, I'm 50/50 with you. I think guys like Bradshaw, Big Ben, Brad Johnson, and Eli rode good teams to the SB.

I think Marino and Fouts were on bad teams.

I think Brady and Montana elevated good teams to win the big one.

And yes, while I readily admit that Manning is an incredible passer and has been elite almost every year he's played, people forget just how good of Ds he's been on because he's been the face of that team for so long.
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