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Offline uffda udfa  
#181 Posted : Monday, July 21, 2014 4:06:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: musccy Go to Quoted Post
Yes, I am serious. I'm too lazy to look up specifics, but off of memory, most if not all of the players I listed were around 30 if not younger. I could list many other FA failures too, but my point is I don't see how FA is this silver bullet that you seem to be making it out to be.

As for bargain shopping, I like Vic Ketchman's article on Packers.com. I admit he's basically paid to write green and gold frosted articles, but one of the things he said during the Jarius Byrd situation is that the Packers are not an ideal destination for FAs - it's cold, small town, income tax unlike a few states with NFL teams - so to get a FA, in all likelihood you'll have to outbid most if not everyone else. Neither you nor I can know that for sure, but I tend to believe that he's correct, and under that assumption, in order to consistently dip into FA you'll be overpaying consistently as well. That's not a healthy way to sustain a franchise and long term success. Consequently, bargain hunting and green guys as you put it are a necessitated strategy in a market/franchise like Green Bay.

As for Seneca, no, I was not a fan of that or what Ted did with the backup last year. You're always going to have calculated risks on every team at some position, though. You're just not going to have All Pros at every position in a capped league. Last year was QB, this year it's center in my opinion and we have to hope it pans out.


Vic is a paid sycophant but I do agree with him that it is hard to land FA's in Green Bay relative to other cities. There are certain types who would actually prefer Green Bay over other destinations and I think Ted Thompson looks for them and favors them when drafting.

I do think winning it all in 2010 with the injury list and the locale our team hails from makes it the single most spectacular SB victory in the history of the SB save for maybe the Jets over the Colts. I think we can all agree shopping at a place like Goodwill can save you some money but that shouldn't be the only place you go to buy items you might need. How would you feel if Ted Thompson or our next GM used the same approach Ted Thompson used to solving our S, ILB, C and OL in finding the next franchise QB? Ted Thompson has failed in many key positions on this team over and over again... Rodgers covers those glaring mistakes up quite nicely because we're still a good team. As PFT noted and hasn't been addressed EVERYBODY KNOWS we need a better team around Rodgers...why don't you? A: Because...good is good enough to you and I'll never see eye to eye with you on that.

,
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Online Zero2Cool  
#182 Posted : Monday, July 21, 2014 4:43:17 PM(UTC)
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Simply put, the Packers cannot afford to take the high price free agent risks that teams with an owner can.

Example: Albert Haynesworth signed a seven-year, $100 million contract with the Washington Redskins on the first day of free agency. Two seasons with Redskins, 6.5 sacks in 20 games.

Do you have any financial clue what would that kind of swing and miss would do the Packers franchise? The Packers are the smallest market professional sports team. Think about that for a second. NBA. NHL. MLB. NFL. Packers have the smallest market. And it's by a landslide too. Then factor in the weather. How many people love the winter weather in Wisconsin?


It is somewhat mind boggling that some can think that this is monopoly money and go ahead spend big on this free agent because he did well in system X which differs from system Y which we have. But hey, it is a big name on that ESPN show so they must be great and they will blend in perfectly!


Free agency isn't simply pulling a guy onto your team and you instantly get those stats. It does not work that way. Face. Palm.
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Offline musccy  
#183 Posted : Monday, July 21, 2014 6:12:50 PM(UTC)
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It's not that I think good is good enough, I just feel Draft and develop has worked in GB and is debatably a necessity like zero just said. I don't see a lot of question marks on the team, mainly DE, C, and ILB...but every team has issues so I don't think the Packers can't be in contention in January if they stay healthy.
Offline uffda udfa  
#184 Posted : Monday, July 21, 2014 7:44:21 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Simply put, the Packers cannot afford to take the high price free agent risks that teams with an owner can.

Example: Albert Haynesworth signed a seven-year, $100 million contract with the Washington Redskins on the first day of free agency. Two seasons with Redskins, 6.5 sacks in 20 games.

Do you have any financial clue what would that kind of swing and miss would do the Packers franchise? The Packers are the smallest market professional sports team. Think about that for a second. NBA. NHL. MLB. NFL. Packers have the smallest market. And it's by a landslide too. Then factor in the weather. How many people love the winter weather in Wisconsin?


It is somewhat mind boggling that some can think that this is monopoly money and go ahead spend big on this free agent because he did well in system X which differs from system Y which we have. But hey, it is a big name on that ESPN show so they must be great and they will blend in perfectly!


Free agency isn't simply pulling a guy onto your team and you instantly get those stats. It does not work that way. Face. Palm.


You do realize there is revenue sharing and the Packers get an equal piece of the pie? It's the ONLY reason we're able to hang in the NFL at all.

You're saying...don't swing because you might miss? Well, I'm sure glad we didn't have that philosophy when Reggie White was a free agent or the Favre years would've ended ringless...and Reggie wasn't all Ron Wolf brought to this franchise to get us over the hump.

I can imagine most of you as Bucs fans back in the Dungy years. Oh, we're happy being in the playoffs but never winning it all. Uh, not what Tampa was thinking... they put their foot down and wanted it all...not just good enough. Enter Gruden... World Champions. Oftentimes, it takes big balls to get where you want to go in life. Many don't have the stomach for it and are content with just good. That's fine in life if that's how you want to live but not in sports where the quest is for championships. There ain't nothin' else to be watching for to me... the hope you can get there. That is what Aaron Rodgers gives everyone...he alone is not enough.

This thread has shown that most fans here are perfectly content with the plodding not quite good enough ways we're being operated. I've not seen one legitimate reason for us not to be more aggressive.


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Offline steveishere  
#185 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 5:33:10 AM(UTC)
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Actually I think GB pays into revenue sharing because they are more profitable than a lot of other teams. The difference is there isn't a huge pool of money to pull from to actually pay guys if needed. We don't have some deep pockets owner to foot the bill when we give some guy 30-40m guaranteed. All the money to pay players has to be saved up and taken care of and spent wisely.
Offline musccy  
#186 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 5:33:48 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post

This thread has shown that most fans here are perfectly content with the plodding not quite good enough ways we're being operated. I've not seen one legitimate reason for us not to be more aggressive.


To me it has nothing to do with being content with good enough, it's about managing risk and attempting to maximize value.

WR for the Packers is a good example of this working. The Packers have lost one of their best WRs each of the last 3 years but have not skipped a beat. Jennings and Jones will be making roughly 12 million elsewhere while the Packers will likely match their production for about 10 mil less out of Cobb and Boykin. The team will likely lose at least one key WR next year, but with the holdovers (Myles White, etc.) and 3 draft picks, you hopefully don't skip a beat again, without having to spend the big bucks.

It hasn't always worked as we've seen at some positions, but it's not about not wanting to win, it's about not wanting to put too many eggs in one or two baskets.
Offline uffda udfa  
#187 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 10:13:30 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
Actually I think GB pays into revenue sharing because they are more profitable than a lot of other teams. The difference is there isn't a huge pool of money to pull from to actually pay guys if needed. We don't have some deep pockets owner to foot the bill when we give some guy 30-40m guaranteed. All the money to pay players has to be saved up and taken care of and spent wisely.


That's great but what does that have to do with not being aggressive? Again, the whole don't swing because we might miss? We should just shop at Goodwill because we're such a "poor" franchise in many's mind?

Why in the world did we ever pursue Reggie White... the stadium wasn't pulling in the money like it is today. White being a Packer was one of the single greatest days in franchise history. That singular day served notice to the NFL that the Green Bay Packers were going for it all. What a day. What a glorious day. Now, we have greater revenue streams and it is being preached and promoted that the poor pitiful Packers just can't afford to go for it??????

Don't pay Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson if we're so short on cash...find some cheap GM and HC talent and save some shekels there. If we're so short on cash and need to do "smart things" then why did we give big money to a guy with health concerns like Matthews? We should've just let Clay walk and replaced him with the next Andy Mulumba or Frank Zombo to save money because we paid Aaron so much. In fact, since I've heard Matt Flynn is Aaron's equal we should've just sought out Matt and let Aaron leave as a FA, because we're just too destitute to compete.

My goodness you guys have a depressing view of this franchise. Just a poor weak sister of the NFL that should feel lucky it's able to be even good. No wonder there isn't this desire to be great...we should be dancing circles we're even able to compete at all?
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Online Zero2Cool  
#188 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 10:25:07 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
You're saying...don't swing because you might miss? Well, I'm sure glad we didn't have that philosophy when Reggie White was a free agent or the Favre years would've ended ringless...and Reggie wasn't all Ron Wolf brought to this franchise to get us over the hump.


I am saying, and it is quite clear what I am saying, is that the Packers have to be more fiscally wise than other teams. How many Reggie White's have there been in Free Agency? lol nice example.

Brett Favre would have been Jeff George 2.0 if it weren't for Mike Holmgren. Another great example that helps prove my point.

Another factoid that you cleverly omit in your mentioning of Favre. The Packers went into the 1992 with the 5th and 19th overall picks trading the latter.

Helluva lot easier to trade the 19th overall pick for a QB that you are confident that is going to be your franchise when you got the 5th overall sitting in your jacket now isn't it? Suddenly when the facts are exposed, it wasn't so risky.

Reggie White - when has a player of his talent or skill or promise hit free agency?
Brett Favre - packers needed QB, had two 1st round picks and a GM who felt confident Favre was "it"

Charles Woodson and the 2009 draft make me feel confident that if White and/or Favre were available in the same exact situations, he'd have pulled the trigger.



I did like Ron Wolf's approach and would like to see Ted Thompson venture out more. That doesn't mean I think he should be replaced unless the brass KNOWS they have someone gooder. You remember Mike Sherman? He took a lot of risks and it screwed the Packers over. I bet you loved the Sherman days and winning the "offseason" wet your fan appetite. Not me.

Famously, I bemoaned the Greg Jennings pick. I wanted Chad Jackson, thanks to the talking ESPN heads and my college ignorance. It was that season I realized to put more trust into Thompson's decisions. I also educated myself on the process of free agency and all the variables that go into it.

Even with that, I wanted the Packers to spend extra to get Chris Canty when they switched over to 3 - 4. Probably a good decision not to have done that.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#189 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 10:54:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I am saying, and it is quite clear what I am saying, is that the Packers have to be more fiscally wise than other teams. How many Reggie White's have there been in Free Agency? lol nice example.

Brett Favre would have been Jeff George 2.0 if it weren't for Mike Holmgren. Another great example that helps prove my point.

Another factoid that you cleverly omit in your mentioning of Favre. The Packers went into the 1992 with the 5th and 19th overall picks trading the latter.

Helluva lot easier to trade the 19th overall pick for a QB that you are confident that is going to be your franchise when you got the 5th overall sitting in your jacket now isn't it? Suddenly when the facts are exposed, it wasn't so risky.

Reggie White - when has a player of his talent or skill or promise hit free agency?
Brett Favre - packers needed QB, had two 1st round picks and a GM who felt confident Favre was "it"

Charles Woodson and the 2009 draft make me feel confident that if White and/or Favre were available in the same exact situations, he'd have pulled the trigger.



I did like Ron Wolf's approach and would like to see Ted Thompson venture out more. That doesn't mean I think he should be replaced unless the brass KNOWS they have someone gooder. You remember Mike Sherman? He took a lot of risks and it screwed the Packers over. I bet you loved the Sherman days and winning the "offseason" wet your fan appetite. Not me.

Famously, I bemoaned the Greg Jennings pick. I wanted Chad Jackson, thanks to the talking ESPN heads and my college ignorance. It was that season I realized to put more trust into Thompson's decisions. I also educated myself on the process of free agency and all the variables that go into it.

Even with that, I wanted the Packers to spend extra to get Chris Canty when they switched over to 3 - 4. Probably a good decision not to have done that.


So, Jeff George would've been Brett Favre 2.0 if Mike Holmgren coached him? These are opinions and have no basis in reality. Nobody knows how Favre's career would've gone elsewhere, although, I do agree he had some great potential to bust without a strong figure due to his headstrong ways.

I'm confused? What facts have been exposed? I was talking about Reggie and the Favre trade comes up in reply?

Someone please tell when Mike Sherman won any off-season? Are you referring to Joe Johnson? The guy who tore up his triceps right off the bat? I don't know what else you could be referring to? Sherman wasn't a crazy spender. He did get Al Harris for a 2nd... how dare he waste a precious 2nd rounder! Ted Thompson would be dealing 6th and 7th's and getting much lesser players.

There aren't many Reggie White's...but supposedly we were in for Randy Moss, Tony Gonzalez and Marshawn Lynch and each time wouldn't give up high enough picks to bring the guys in. All 3 of those guys would've been worth a pick higher up the food chain to get them in here.
Ted Thompson has a plan to be good and hopes for the anomalous run every so many years. What a waste to have the best QB in the NFL and not do enough. Anyone care to refute the PFT.com blurb about EVERYONE KNOWS... none of you guys seem to know. That is what drives me batty...there are objective perceptions of this franchise not doing enough to help it's star and many of you are battling like crazy trying to prove that what we're doing is right? It ain't right and anyone objective knows that.

EDIT: Here it is, again... the piece went on to allege Rodgers was taking shots at management the same way Woodson did when he was here. We simply don't do enough...objective observers know it, the players know it, but you don't know it?

Profootballtalk.com on Green Bay's 5th overall rating in their pre-season power ratings:

Quote:
They’d be even higher if Rodgers had the help that other franchise quarterbacks enjoy. Specifically on defense. And everyone knows it. Maybe that’s why recent remarks from Rodgers that easily could have been interpreted as a slap at the front office and/or the locker room didn’t ruffle many feathers.
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Offline musccy  
#190 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:09:32 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post

There aren't many Reggie White's...but supposedly we were in for Randy Moss, Tony Gonzalez and Marshawn Lynch and each time wouldn't give up high enough picks to bring the guys in. All 3 of those guys would've been worth a pick higher up the food chain to get them in here.

Ted Thompson has a plan to be good and hopes for the anomalous run every so many years. What a waste to have the best QB in the NFL and not do enough.



For the most part Marshawn, Moss, and Gonzalez worked out, but the Packers stuck to what they thought was the right value for S. Jackson last offseason and thank God we didn't get him because the Packers are in a MUCH better place at RB than ATL right now.

Ted is not trying to waste Aaron's years, he's all about sticking to his guns on the value he assigns players. That doesn't mean he's not aggressive, he has moved up in the draft when he felt the value was correct (e.g. CM3) and periodically spent in FA, but again, when it's at the right value. If anything I feel that's BETTER for Aaron, you're not making any hasty moves to jeopardize good years. What if we pissed away big dollars on Paul Kruger, S. Jackson? Would you or Rodgers want that dead weight on the team right now?

Like zero said, this is not a competition to see how many of Mel Kiper's or ESPN's top rated FAs you can add to your roster each season.

EDIT: Also, as to your quotes about every franchise QB getting more support - would you rather have had the Patriot's or Packer's receiving group last year?
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Offline Pack93z  
#191 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:19:58 AM(UTC)
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Objectively... most here have stated a number of times, we wish for Thompson to become more active in free agency. More aggressive so to speak.

But objectively as well.. most can see that we have been highly successful of building through the draft on an overall scale. Not many boast a better winning percentage over the past decade.

Objectively most here know that there is more to winning it all than just the talent level. How can one truly measure how much talent this team has the past two seasons when we have been banged up more than any other franchise. Some might objectively argue to even make the playoffs the last two seasons is a statement of the talent depth. Remember, this is a team that lost 2 games in 2011.

For me, the argument if this.. objectively.. his successes of building a roster outweigh his failures in building a team. At least until it is proven there is a better available option at building a championship team available.

The best in the business as many claim.. Billy the Cheat, hasn't won in what 5 or 6 years? San Fran and Denver have hoisted none in there tenure. Hell.. only the Giants have won it more than once.. and would anyone argue beyond doubt that Eli is elite?

You see it has we haven't done everything we can to win a Superbowl every year... without looking past that year. I agree. It is a more measured approach that has netted the same amount or more trophies than any team out there. in the same time frame save one.

To me.. objectively.. states that our approach is comparable or better than most. So why risk falling off without a clear reason to do so.

BTW.. last time I checked.. the defensive failures do not lie alone upon the GM. Objectively speaking of course.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Pack93z  
#192 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:31:35 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post

There aren't many Reggie White's...but supposedly we were in for Randy Moss, Tony Gonzalez and Marshawn Lynch and each time wouldn't give up high enough picks to bring the guys in. All 3 of those guys would've been worth a pick higher up the food chain to get them in here.


So was a Peppers.

I think Tony Dungy has much of the same philosophy in obtaining a player for his team. One in which there has to be a complete fit not just talent.

“I gave my honest answer, which is that I felt drafting him would bring much distraction to the team,” Dungy says.

Moss.. was is and always will be a cancer once the ball didn't go his way. Always has been and was through the Patriot years. Many reasons for the pass.

I wanted the Lynch move personally.. I wanted it when he came out of college. But he also has a number of red flags that surround him. His reputation is a loner.. not the best locker room guy. His antics at the SB media this last year proves it.

In terms of Tony G.. other than being long in the tooth, hard to argue why not trade if the price was truly a 3rd. But we also had a youngster in Finley drafted the prior year.. so that may have factored.

The point is there is always more to the story than just obtaining a player.. and costs that go into it. Like if we traded our 2nd or 3rd for Tony G.. would we have had enough ammo to move up and get Matthews?

Not saying you don't know any of this.. just illustrating that there is a flip side to every lack of move.

Message modified by user Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:59:10 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline uffda udfa  
#193 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:33:01 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: musccy Go to Quoted Post
For the most part Marshawn, Moss, and Gonzalez worked out, but the Packers stuck to what they thought was the right value for S. Jackson last offseason and thank God we didn't get him because the Packers are in a MUCH better place at RB than ATL right now.

Ted is not trying to waste Aaron's years, he's all about sticking to his guns on the value he assigns players. That doesn't mean he's not aggressive, he has moved up in the draft when he felt the value was correct (e.g. CM3) and periodically spent in FA, but again, when it's at the right value. If anything I feel that's BETTER for Aaron, you're not making any hasty moves to jeopardize good years. What if we pissed away big dollars on Paul Kruger, S. Jackson? Would you or Rodgers want that dead weight on the team right now?

Like zero said, this is not a competition to see how many of Mel Kiper's or ESPN's top rated FAs you can add to your roster each season.

EDIT: Also, as to your quotes about every franchise QB getting more support - would you rather have had the Patriot's or Packer's receiving group last year?


You keep talking about "good years" ? Aaron's "good years" started a few years back and are nearing their end. Please, don't tell me you think he's not hit is peak yet. He did that in his MVP season.

I'll answer your Packers/Patriots question this way...I'd rather have had the Patriots team. Don't overvalue our WR corps. It isn't 3 years ago. Our WR corps is eroding. We don't have a clue what we really have beyond Jordy and Randall... let's see Boykin with Rodgers this year and whomever else makes the cut. I love Amendola and Edelman. Gronk sure helps that WR corps out with his presence at TE. Kenbrell Thompkins ain't too shabby either. No question they need to add another piece at WR and I'm not sure Brandon LaFell was enough. I would've taken our WR corps last year but them with Gronk makes them almost as formidable.
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Offline uffda udfa  
#194 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:40:28 AM(UTC)
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So, it's okay to be happy with what we've accomplished because relative to other franchises we've been very successful? If you have the best QB in the NFL and you can't win playoff games beyond one run and a win over Joe Webb there's a failing somewhere. I don't care where we fit over the last x amount of years. We have the QB to win us multiples but we rest on how we perform relative the the rest of the league? If we have the best QB we should be the pace setting franchise not one celebrating being good relative to the others. That is a loser mentality to me. EDIT: That's like the Vike fans saying in AD's prime that they'd be happy having a running game that rates up there with the best of them. With AD they should be the dominant rushing franchise and should settle for nothing less than that. If you were Viking fans you'd all be congratulating yourselves and this franchise for being among the best at running the ball while I would be going nuts saying there is so much more than just being among the best...we should be the best. WE SHOULD BE THE BEST... We have Aaron freaking Rodgers. All world. Give him a freaking supporting cast. It took years to get him a Lacy. Now, we finally have a running game and now we have no TE and a thinning WR corps and a brand new C. The D is still likely to be a bottom feeder. It's just simply depressing but that's okay...we're still good. Tick, tick, tick goes Aaron's career. He knows it... I know it...the non Packer fan who knows the NFL knows it.

Honestly, I wonder how you'll be as fans when Aaron is done. Will you lament how his career went or will you be celebrating his one SB appearance and win?

Brett's years weren't as successful as they should've been, either. Putting Mike Sherman as conductor of the Packers train was idiotic. Ron Wolf's lament will be TT's only much stronger.
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Offline musccy  
#195 Posted : Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:43:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: uffda udfa Go to Quoted Post
You keep talking about "good years" ? Aaron's "good years" started a few years back and are nearing their end. Please, don't tell me you think he's not hit is peak yet. He did that in his MVP season.

I'll answer your Packers/Patriots question this way...I'd rather have had the Patriots team. Don't overvalue our WR corps. It isn't 3 years ago. Our WR corps is eroding. We don't have a clue what we really have beyond Jordy and Randall... let's see Boykin with Rodgers this year and whomever else makes the cut. I love Amendola and Edelman. Gronk sure helps that WR corps out with his presence at TE. Kenbrell Thompkins ain't too shabby either. No question they need to add another piece at WR and I'm not sure Brandon LaFell was enough. I would've taken our WR corps last year but them with Gronk makes them almost as formidable.


My point with the Patriots was to counter you bringing up the PFT comment and insinuating the Packers are one of the only franchises not supporting a top-tier QB. The Patriots were an easy example of how they, in a well publicized way, didn't support a franchise QB in his prime as he would have liked. In Indy, for much of his career Peyton didn't have a great RB and iffy defenses. The Saints recently let Reggie Bush go. We could go on with examples, but point being, I don't see how the Packers have squandered Aaron's past or future seasons. Pack93z just had a great post about the right fit and that there's a lot more than meets the eye.

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21h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

23h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Tezzy

21-Oct / Green Bay Packers Talk / Tezzy

21-Oct / Green Bay Packers Talk / Tezzy

21-Oct / Green Bay Packers Talk / Yerko

21-Oct / Green Bay Packers Talk / yooperfan

21-Oct / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

21-Oct / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann