DoddPower
9 years ago

What's the precedent? Ted Thompson tried trading for Tony Gonzalez years back...same for Randy Moss. If there is the potential to add a special player, Ted Thompson will do his "due diligence". There is no way I can conceive of that he wouldn't be doing "due diligence" on the Graham situation. That guy changes games. Special player.

I find it odd that people are referring to Quarless and Taylor????? as SOLID? Huh? Wow, that is way overvauling your own. Quarless is JAG and Taylor doesn't and hasn't played on offense very much. Finley was an 8+ million dollar a year player, as valued by the Packers. I think most of us would say he was nowhere near an 8 million dollar player for us...ever. Quarless makes 7 times less than what Finley made as our #1 TE if we're talking cap hit. Jermichael's cap hit was 8.75 million last season, Q's is 1.25 million.

If you were okay with 8.75 million for Jermichael, I don't know why you'd have a problem to have a truly special player for a few million more.

EDIT: The current salary cap is 133 million. The salary cap jumped by 10 million from 2013-2014 and is expected to jump at least another 10 million next year. Projections are that it will likely be over 150 million by 2016. So, in essence, the Rodgers cap hit will be absorbed by the rise in the cap next year. We will have plenty of green to dole out for extensions to Jordy and Randall if cap is going up another 10 million.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



I don't think it's as much about the salary cap implications as it is about the two first round draft picks (or more so the cumulative aspects). Those are even more valuable than the money Graham's contract would cost (which would also mean losing at least one good player, probably. But that would likely be worth it).

As I said, if Thompson wants to make a blockbuster move, go after a defensive superstar, not an offensive superstar. I think that would benefit the Packers far more than adding another superstar offensive player. I'd personally rather keep the two first round draft picks. If a team is going to take risks like these, take them during free agency when the only ramifications would be financial. Not financial AND valuable draft picks. At this point in the season, I'd rather just focus on locking up the key players for the next few years and keeping the draft picks. The Packers offense is going to be very good regardless. My biggest concern is the defense, which is likely still going to be a liability.
mi_keys
9 years ago
And if you do go big on offense, elite offensive tackle please.
Born and bred a cheesehead
uffda udfa
9 years ago
I'm not sure you can pump many more resources in the defense... we've drafted a lot of guys high to play D for us and it's been a total disaster. When 68 million of your cap is already committed to defense, how much higher can you go? I know you have to keep trying... but it just sucks to have to keep using high picks on D that don't work out.

If this team fails on D, again, which seems well within the realm of possibility, it's time not only for Capers to go, but Ted Thompson as well as he's the one who built our current defensive mess. We don't have a defensive starter who wasn't a Ted Thompson addition unless I've overlooked someone. This is TT's team. If it fails, he has to be accountable. I'm willing to buy the injury thing as we've been hit hard but some of these guys who are injured weren't going to offer us much anyway.

Bottom line...Gimme Jimmy!






UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


sschind
9 years ago

What's the precedent? Ted Thompson tried trading for Tony Gonzalez years back...same for Randy Moss. If there is the potential to add a special player, Ted Thompson will do his "due diligence". There is no way I can conceive of that he wouldn't be doing "due diligence" on the Graham situation. That guy changes games. Special player.

I find it odd that people are referring to Quarless and Taylor????? as SOLID? Huh? Wow, that is way overvauling your own. Quarless is JAG and Taylor doesn't and hasn't played on offense very much. Finley was an 8+ million dollar a year player, as valued by the Packers. I think most of us would say he was nowhere near an 8 million dollar player for us...ever. Quarless makes 7 times less than what Finley made as our #1 TE if we're talking cap hit. Jermichael's cap hit was 8.75 million last season, Q's is 1.25 million.

If you were okay with 8.75 million for Jermichael, I don't know why you'd have a problem to have a truly special player for a few million more.

Our roster has been TE heavy for the past few years. Obviously, this franchise greatly values that position and it shows that they were willing to pay and pay big for a guy like Finley who has never produced like Graham. Finley has started 48 games and amassed 20 TD's. Graham has started 36 games and amassed 41 TD's. So, about every 2.5 games you can count on a TD from Finley. Meanwhile, in every game, on average, you can count on one from Graham.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



I am sure Ted is doing his due dilligence. In fact I would be willing to bet almost anything that he has looked into it. He is a good GM and that is what good GMs do, they look into every possible avenue to improve their team. I don't think anyone is saying he isn't. What they are saying, and I agree is that the price will likely end up being too high and I am not talking about salary. You mention the precedent set with Moss and Gonzales but we didn't ge those guys and why not? Because Ted didn't offer enough.

Not only do I not see him parting with two first round draft picks in essence it would probbaly cost us Nelson or Cobb as well. Granted we still might lose one of them but signing Graham would just about ensure it. Yeah we could cut all those guys you mentioned and make up the money but I highly doubt that he would.

Absolutely Graham would be an improvemnet over what we have now at TE. He might be the best TE the Packers ever had but I just don't think it is a high priority position of need right now and if it costs 2 firsts and Cobb I say its too high off a price to pay.

Dexter_Sinister
9 years ago
It all boils down to one overwhelming obstical.

Graham won't get enough targets to cover the cost.

Rodgers has too many weapons and likes to spread the ball around too much.

That is why they didn't chase Jennings and Jones.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
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uffda udfa
9 years ago

It all boils down to one overwhelming obstical.

Graham won't get enough targets to cover the cost.

Rodgers has too many weapons and likes to spread the ball around too much.

That is why they didn't chase Jennings and Jones.

Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister 



The Jennings thing isn't true. Greg turned down an offer of over 11million from the Packers before the start of his last season with us, and then took less from Minnesota. We wanted Greg Jennings and were willing to pay the kind of money it would take to land Graham.

What I once thought was going to be difficult to do...sign Cobb and Nelson, is now really not that difficult only a matter of whether you want two big money deals in your WR corps. I'm not sure they want to do that. I wasn't aware the cap was going to go up as much as it's projected to go up. From 123 million in 2013 to over 150 million by 2016 gives you a ton of flexibility. I no longer believe we'd have to part with Jordy or Randall and we'd still be able to get Graham in here.

BTW, I realize two 1's is a steep steep price but given the odds of landing someone like Jimmy Graham with one of our 1st's would be unlikely. One first for him makes all the sense in the world to me even with his age. He could likely keep it going for 7 seasons and he will never lose his size. If we didn't have Aaron Rodgers or Clay Matthews would it have been worth it to you to cough up two 1st's to get either of them? I would do it because Graham is a known superstar who is getting better and better. We debated who you'd take if you could only have one... Jordy or Randall. If I could only have one between Jordy, Randall or Jimmy...I'd choose Jimmy.

One potential side benefit to landing someone like Graham would be his potential influence on a kid like Lyerla. We don't know all of Colt's story but Jimmy's is well documented. The amount of help Jimmy could provide to Colt would be immeasurable. If you are unaware of JImmy Graham's story you should take a minute to watch it as it: Jimmy Graham's Unlikely Path to the NFL 
UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


DarkaneRules
9 years ago
It is amazing that you have given quite a lot of compelling arguments here and they were really close to swaying me. In the end, I prefer cultivating draft picks and not trading them away. I like this method. The argument has been solid given our recent history pointing to the fact that we have not really been hitting on the first round picks lately. But this is the year where we can really see if those swings in the recent early rounds pay off. Maybe some other year, I entertain the idea for another star free agent signing, but not this year. We already got Peppers, and I am content with that move.
Circular Arguments: They are a heck of an annoyance
sschind
9 years ago

The Jennings thing isn't true. Greg turned down an offer of over 11million from the Packers before the start of his last season with us, and then took less from Minnesota. We wanted Greg Jennings and were willing to pay the kind of money it would take to land Graham.

What I once thought was going to be difficult to do...sign Cobb and Nelson, is now really not that difficult only a matter of whether you want two big money deals in your WR corps. I'm not sure they want to do that. I wasn't aware the cap was going to go up as much as it's projected to go up. From 123 million in 2013 to over 150 million by 2016 gives you a ton of flexibility. I no longer believe we'd have to part with Jordy or Randall and we'd still be able to get Graham in here.

BTW, I realize two 1's is a steep steep price but given the odds of landing someone like Jimmy Graham with one of our 1st's would be unlikely. One first for him makes all the sense in the world to me even with his age. He could likely keep it going for 7 seasons and he will never lose his size. If we didn't have Aaron Rodgers or Clay Matthews would it have been worth it to you to cough up two 1st's to get either of them? I would do it because Graham is a known superstar who is getting better and better. We debated who you'd take if you could only have one... Jordy or Randall. If I could only have one between Jordy, Randall or Jimmy...I'd choose Jimmy.

One potential side benefit to landing someone like Graham would be his potential influence on a kid like Lyerla. We don't know all of Colt's story but Jimmy's is well documented. The amount of help Jimmy could provide to Colt would be immeasurable. If you are unaware of JImmy Graham's story you should take a minute to watch it as it: Jimmy Graham's Unlikely Path to the NFL 

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



I just don't know if trading away two first round picks and then mortgaging the future by signing three expensive players (Graham, Nelson and Cobb) to backloaded contracts to take advantage of an anticipated rise in the salary cap is the smart thing to do. Lets just say we do that and the cap doesn't go up as much as anticipated. we could be in a world of trouble. Yeah we may be fine with being able to keep those three guys but at the expense of which others. I just don't think it makes good business sense to play with unknowns like that.

The thing is I think there are a lot, well OK maybe not a lot but more than just one or two, of players who could do what Graham does if asked to do it. Make any athletically talented guy the focus of your passing game and he will most likely rise to the top and put up amazing numbers. I'm not saying we have one of those guys on our team now but who knows? I'd be willing to bet McCarthy and Rodgers could take one of our TEs and make him a top 5 TE in the league if they really wanted to. If not one of our own then any number of good TE's in the league that could be had much cheaper than Graham. If they wanted to make the TE the focus of our passing game and turn our TE into our top pass catching threat they could. Of course that would cut down on one of our strengths. That being our ability and desire to spread the ball around. Although, with the relative lack of experience in our receiving corps compared to the last few years it remains to be seen if we can still do that but I believe Rodgers can get it done.

The bottom line is you don't need a freakishly talented TE to make the TE your main focus in the passing game. You need a guy that can catch the ball but more importantly you need and offense built around that and a coach and a QB willing to make it so. I'm not sure we have that and I am not sure I want that.

I should add that I agree with Darkane in that you do give compelling arguments. Unlike so many similar threads that simply say crap like "we should do this because he is really really really good" Though I disagree with you I don't think it is as crazy as it may seem to some people.
nerdmann
9 years ago
This is just about the dumbest football conversation I've ever seen. LOL
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
play2win
9 years ago

I just don't know if trading away two first round picks and then mortgaging the future by signing three expensive players (Graham, Nelson and Cobb) to backloaded contracts to take advantage of an anticipated rise in the salary cap is the smart thing to do. Lets just say we do that and the cap doesn't go up as much as anticipated. we could be in a world of trouble. Yeah we may be fine with being able to keep those three guys but at the expense of which others. I just don't think it makes good business sense to play with unknowns like that.

The thing is I think there are a lot, well OK maybe not a lot but more than just one or two, of players who could do what Graham does if asked to do it. Make any athletically talented guy the focus of your passing game and he will most likely rise to the top and put up amazing numbers. I'm not saying we have one of those guys on our team now but who knows? I'd be willing to bet McCarthy and Rodgers could take one of our TEs and make him a top 5 TE in the league if they really wanted to. If not one of our own then any number of good TE's in the league that could be had much cheaper than Graham. If they wanted to make the TE the focus of our passing game and turn our TE into our top pass catching threat they could. Of course that would cut down on one of our strengths. That being our ability and desire to spread the ball around. Although, with the relative lack of experience in our receiving corps compared to the last few years it remains to be seen if we can still do that but I believe Rodgers can get it done.

The bottom line is you don't need a freakishly talented TE to make the TE your main focus in the passing game. You need a guy that can catch the ball but more importantly you need and offense built around that and a coach and a QB willing to make it so. I'm not sure we have that and I am not sure I want that.

I should add that I agree with Darkane in that you do give compelling arguments. Unlike so many similar threads that simply say crap like "we should do this because he is really really really good" Though I disagree with you I don't think it is as crazy as it may seem to some people.

Originally Posted by: sschind 



To your point sschind, NO makes Graham their top target, and he remains their top receiver. make no bones about it, he is more WR than TE. considering this, we already have that player with very similar numbers on our roster in Jordy Nelson. Grahams' best season, last year, he caught 16 TDs. Nelson's best year, 2011, he caught 15 TDs.

when you compare their numbers, there just seems little to no real added value in a deal where we are forced to cough up two R1s and a $10M contract.

No way.

Graham doesnt get those numbers without having in the neighborhood of 120 targets, same for Jordy.

the real crux of the biscuit is NO became one dimensional using a hybrid TE as a feature WR. They were 27th in rushing last season. GB ranked 7th, largely due to the fact that we employed a good blocking TE in Quarless, and were able to spread the ball around more effectively than NO, in spite of the fact that Breese had over 5000 yds passing, and Rodgers was injured for most of the season.

pick a player to feature and feed him the ball. NO did that with Graham, we've done it with Nelson, with nearly identical results in their best seasons.

Rodgers and Lyerla will make our TE position not only deeper, but more versatile. cant say the same for Graham, who would be far more one dimensional. Graham is essentially a WR, who offers zero blocking at the line. Is that worth 2 first round picks? Not to me.
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