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Offline nerdmann  
#31 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 4:12:41 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
The problem is you call players like Lang and EDS "serviceable" or "back up quality" when they are clearly better than that. Nobody has an o-line filled with Sitton quality players and that's just ridiculous if that's your standard. I'd say there are few if any teams that even have all Lang quality players.


Agreed. What other team could have made the playoffs with their 3rd, 4th and 5th string Ts?

Not only that, but you all forget. When Mike first got here, he was requesting "smaller, quicker" Olinemen. That's what Mike wanted for his zBS scheme. It worked like sh*t, so later they changed to looking for "bigger stronger" guys. Since then, They've been doing quite well.

This past season we've seen how good the depth is. When Ted's 4th rounder starts at LT and performs better than the top two picks in the draft (who played RT btw) that's a pretty damn good pick. And that's pretty damn good depth.

sh*t, what did Don Barclay cost us in the draft? Nothing.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline Wade  
#32 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 6:08:32 PM(UTC)
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Just don't bitch to me when Rodgers goes down to a concussion when one of those Packer linemen you consider adequate lets Suh, Allen, or whoever get past them again. And don't bitch to me when a top team like Seattle or San Francisco keeps Rodgers trying to escape too much and keeps that all-world offense of that Packers from advancing deep into the playoffs.

I don't expect everyone to be at Sitton's level. But to my mind there is not just a drop off to Lang, et al, but a major drop off. IMO if you are content with five Langs, your standards are too low.

That most teams might be content with five Langs is irrelevant to me. Most teams aren't serious championship contenders and wouldn't be with five Langs either.

And that's what I want. I want a team that everyone puts in the top four teams of the league every year. Not just a playoff contender, a team that people expect to contend for at least a conference championship.

A dominant team.

Champions aren't content with being good. They aren't content with being better than most teams. They aren't content, period. Champions strive to be dominant.

They may fall short. They may not be able to dominate everywhere. But when they aren't, they don't stop trying to upgrade themselves. They don't feel content with depending on a quarterback's all-world escapability and arm to get himself out of bad situations over and over again.

Content? Content IMO is for sixth seeds.




And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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play2win on 2/15/2014(UTC), yooperfan on 2/16/2014(UTC)
Offline nerdmann  
#33 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 6:15:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Just don't bitch to me when Rodgers goes down to a concussion when one of those Packer linemen you consider adequate lets Suh, Allen, or whoever get past them again. And don't bitch to me when a top team like Seattle or San Francisco keeps Rodgers trying to escape too much and keeps that all-world offense of that Packers from advancing deep into the playoffs.

I don't expect everyone to be at Sitton's level. But to my mind there is not just a drop off to Lang, et al, but a major drop off. IMO if you are content with five Langs, your standards are too low.

That most teams might be content with five Langs is irrelevant to me. Most teams aren't serious championship contenders and wouldn't be with five Langs either.

And that's what I want. I want a team that everyone puts in the top four teams of the league every year. Not just a playoff contender, a team that people expect to contend for at least a conference championship.

A dominant team.

Champions aren't content with being good. They aren't content with being better than most teams. They aren't content, period. Champions strive to be dominant.

They may fall short. They may not be able to dominate everywhere. But when they aren't, they don't stop trying to upgrade themselves. They don't feel content with depending on a quarterback's all-world escapability and arm to get himself out of bad situations over and over again.

Content? Content IMO is for sixth seeds.






Lang wasn't far behind Sitton this year, imo.

Suh and those guys pushed us around a bit, but that was only because EDS went down and Lang had to play C that game. Then they stuck in NEWHOUSE at G.

And yet that game was still closer than you probably remember.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline Wade  
#34 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 6:17:34 PM(UTC)
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Yeah, they made playoffs despite injuries.

And how many playoff games have they won since 2010?

Would they have made it any farther in the playoffs had they had no injuries on the OL at all? Under the "any given sunday" rule, sure, anything's possible. Under the rule that "team's that go farther in the playoffs are the better teams", not in this fan's opinion.

Injuries are an effing excuse. This team had major questions *before* the injuries happened.







And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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yooperfan on 2/16/2014(UTC)
Offline Wade  
#35 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 6:25:41 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Lang wasn't far behind Sitton this year, imo.



Whatever you say.

I bet Lacy doesn't consider him that close to Sitton. Look where Lacy makes contact with defensive players when he runs to Sitton's side, and its probably 2-4 yards farther than when he runs to Lang's side.

Pass protection might be a little closer. But that's as much because Bahktiari was worse than Barclay (and so Sitton had to do more) than it is because Lang is good.

IMO Lang and Bulaga are the offensive linemen most consistently over-rated by Packer fans. IMO they look better than they are because they have been operating next to Newhouse, Bahktiari, Barclay, and/or each other.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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texaspackerbacker on 2/14/2014(UTC)
Offline steveishere  
#36 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 7:55:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Just don't bitch to me when Rodgers goes down to a concussion when one of those Packer linemen you consider adequate lets Suh, Allen, or whoever get past them again. And don't bitch to me when a top team like Seattle or San Francisco keeps Rodgers trying to escape too much and keeps that all-world offense of that Packers from advancing deep into the playoffs.

I don't expect everyone to be at Sitton's level. But to my mind there is not just a drop off to Lang, et al, but a major drop off. IMO if you are content with five Langs, your standards are too low.

That most teams might be content with five Langs is irrelevant to me. Most teams aren't serious championship contenders and wouldn't be with five Langs either.

And that's what I want. I want a team that everyone puts in the top four teams of the league every year. Not just a playoff contender, a team that people expect to contend for at least a conference championship.

A dominant team.

Champions aren't content with being good. They aren't content with being better than most teams. They aren't content, period. Champions strive to be dominant.

They may fall short. They may not be able to dominate everywhere. But when they aren't, they don't stop trying to upgrade themselves. They don't feel content with depending on a quarterback's all-world escapability and arm to get himself out of bad situations over and over again.

Content? Content IMO is for sixth seeds.






It's not about being content it's about what's an actual reasonable possibility. If the problem was being content then we wouldn't have dropped 2 contracts on our Gs and spent consecutive 1st round picks on Ts. Our OL this year was every bit as good as Seattles was even with the injuries so don't give me this "championship contenders" BS. You say we tend to overrate Lang and Bulaga and that may be so but you also seem to severely underrate them. Major drop off my ass, maybe Sitton blows him away in run blocking but Sitton is also a top 3 G in the league. Even if you are right and there's a "major drop off" between the 2 the point is there isn't any drop off between Lang and most of the rest of the NFL he's at least an above average G and so was Bulaga at T when he was actually healthy. If there's a huge drop off between Sitton and Lang then there's a similar drop off between Sitton and almost everyone else so who cares?

LOL you act like there's only 2 levels of play there's guys like Sitton (who are ok) and everyone else who isn't good enough. That's not a "championship mentality" it's just ridiculousness.
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DoddPower on 2/15/2014(UTC)
Offline buckeyepackfan  
#37 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 9:19:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
(shaking head)

I actually like EDS. I don't think he's the weakest link of the OL.

I think he's really good ... for a backup position.

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but debating between players who have demonstrated, at most, that they qualify as "serviceable" and those who might have "potential" for more, is a recipe for disaster.

The goal should not be to have an adequate OL. It should never be to have an adequate line. It should never be to have a serviceable OL. The goal should be to have a dominant line. A great line.

A great line makes an offense unstoppable. A serviceable line threatens the health of the Hall of Fame quarterback that is essential to that unstoppable offense.

Yes, the defense is a bigger train wreck. So it has to be a bigger priority overall. But however much of that train wreck can be cleaned up in one off season, it doesn't matter if Rodgers gets hurt. And, ISTM, if you approach the OL as "we're ok with serviceable and waiting for Tretter or Bahktiari or some pre-March "free agent servicable guys" to improve it, you're just risking #12 again.

The Packers were lucky that the injury last year was a collarbone. What if the next one is to the throwing shoulder or elbow? Or a concussion? Or a major knee injury?

Quarterbacks get injured. It's a reality of the game. But IMO you ought to be doing everything you can to ensure that they face as few hits as possible. And if you are continually content with combinations of "serviceable" and "potential for growth" and "late round picks", IMO you aren't doing everything you can.

IMO the Packers aren't going to be bona fide championship contender until they fix the defense. But they are also just one missed block away from having the same issues at quarterback as every other team in the NFC North.


You keep blaming the O-line for the injury, watch the play, the line (especially Barclay) did exactly what they were supposed to do. Aaron saw an opening and broke out of the pocket, Barclay was screwed at that point, his back was to Aaron, the defender saw immediately where Aaron was going, and broke away from Barclay.
Nobody's playing dumb here, the line needs to improve, but that play, that night, that injury, cannot be put on the O-line.

Go back and look at some of the really good O-line in history, I think you will find they do not consist of 5 great players at their positions, but they are made up of guys who have been together 2 or 3 years.

5 men playing as 1 unit.

That is why I keep saying EDS needs to stay, get Bulaga back, get a chance to see what Sherrard can do, everyone stays healthy, from top to bottom, The Packers are set to have one of the better O-lines in the league.



http://www.nfl.com/video...rs-vs-Packers-highlights
Enjoy the ride – It kicks and just keeps on kickin’.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#38 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 7:28:54 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Again, if you are content for almost a decade with the Colledges (even the St. Louis version, rofl), Bulagas (as shown so far), Langs, and Bahktiari (as shown so far), then you are insufficiently committed to your quarterback's health. IMO.


If Aaron Rodgers was quicker with this reads and decisions, the OL wouldn't be much of a topic at all. Look at when Brett Favre was here or look at Peyton Manning. They both released the ball after 2-3 seconds. Rodgers holds it too long. Why do you think Rodgers is so sensitive about it? Because he knows it and "can't" change it.

Remember 2010 Patriots game? People said OMG the OL is playing great! Wrong. Matt Flynn was releasing the ball right away on quick reads so yeah of course the OL is gonna look good.


Since Rodgers won't improve on that area... lets look at the draft.

Source: http://packershome.com/Draft.aspx

2013 two 4th rounders
2012 7th rounder
2011 1st and 6th rounder
2010 1st and 5th rounder
2009 4th and 5th rounder
2008 4th and 5th rounder
2007 4th rounder
2006 2nd, 3rd and 5th rounder
2005 5th and 7th rounder


The OL isn't the fault of Ted Thompson. The OL staff cannot develop the talent!

Every player in the draft has talent. Every player in the NFL has talent. COACHES responsibilities are to get the MOST out of that talent.


So all of this "draft more OL" is completely naive and avoiding the root problem. The coaches. Until the Packers have a coaching staff that can develop the players to reach their potential, and we have a QB who holds the ball too long ... the Packers OL will always look like garbage. One issue with this country is we always wanna put bandaids on things. A quick fix if you will. There is no quick fix. There is no draft more OL to fix the problem. The problem is NOT the players. It's the damn coaching staff!!


UserPostedImage
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nerdmann on 2/15/2014(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#39 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 7:33:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan Go to Quoted Post
You keep blaming the O-line for the injury, watch the play, the line (especially Barclay) did exactly what they were supposed to do. Aaron saw an opening and broke out of the pocket, Barclay was screwed at that point, his back was to Aaron, the defender saw immediately where Aaron was going, and broke away from Barclay.
Nobody's playing dumb here, the line needs to improve, but that play, that night, that injury, cannot be put on the O-line.

Go back and look at some of the really good O-line in history, I think you will find they do not consist of 5 great players at their positions, but they are made up of guys who have been together 2 or 3 years.

5 men playing as 1 unit.

That is why I keep saying EDS needs to stay, get Bulaga back, get a chance to see what Sherrard can do, everyone stays healthy, from top to bottom, The Packers are set to have one of the better O-lines in the league.



http://www.nfl.com/video...rs-vs-Packers-highlights


I don't know man. Our OL was indeed responsible for Aaron having to break out of the pocket. Moreso Bakhtiari being manhandled by Peppers, forcing Rodgers out to his right, than Barclay. There was no pocket. Peppers blew it up inside.
Offline Wade  
#40 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:41:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
It's not about being content it's about what's an actual reasonable possibility. If the problem was being content then we wouldn't have dropped 2 contracts on our Gs and spent consecutive 1st round picks on Ts. Our OL this year was every bit as good as Seattles was even with the injuries so don't give me this "championship contenders" BS. You say we tend to overrate Lang and Bulaga and that may be so but you also seem to severely underrate them. Major drop off my ass, maybe Sitton blows him away in run blocking but Sitton is also a top 3 G in the league. Even if you are right and there's a "major drop off" between the 2 the point is there isn't any drop off between Lang and most of the rest of the NFL he's at least an above average G and so was Bulaga at T when he was actually healthy. If there's a huge drop off between Sitton and Lang then there's a similar drop off between Sitton and almost everyone else so who cares?

LOL you act like there's only 2 levels of play there's guys like Sitton (who are ok) and everyone else who isn't good enough. That's not a "championship mentality" it's just ridiculousness.


Did you read what I said at all? My point about "big gap between Sitton and Lang" is the point that there are multiple levels of play. I do NOT believe we have to get Sitton level players to improve over the performance of Lang, Bulaga, et al.

There have been great offensive lines, and none of them have been All-Pros across the line. But all of them have been better, a lot better, than the Packer OL during the Thompson/McCarthy years.

I'm sorry, but the "we can't afford more" won't wash with me. Not over a nine year period. Yeah, they have a lot of money invested in Lang. They also have a lot of money invested in Brad Jones. Sometimes money is badly invested. Nine years of putting your NFL money in the Langs and Jones of the world is evidence of bad investment strategy.

The Packers may have no way of paying for improvement in the OL this year. Given the problems on defense, I won't dispute this.

But, one last time, this has not been a one year failure. This has been close to a decade of inability to put together a dominant line.

Call it being content, call it being frugal, call it being satisfied, blame it on injuries, blame it on being left in salary cap hell by Sherman, blame it on not being able to draft high enough, blame it on not coaching people up enough, call it whatever you damn want. Whatever you blame it on, the Packers have not had a dominant offensive line in the entire Ted Thompson/Mike McCarthy era.

I call it unacceptable.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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yooperfan on 2/16/2014(UTC)
Offline buckeyepackfan  
#41 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:46:36 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
I don't know man. Our OL was indeed responsible for Aaron having to break out of the pocket. Moreso Bakhtiari being manhandled by Peppers, forcing Rodgers out to his right, than Barclay. There was no pocket. Peppers blew it up inside.


I don't know what play you are watching, Rodgers had no pressure on him, he did what he has done many times,(instead of throwing the ball away), he saw what he thought was a chance to extend the play by breaking the pocket, Barclay is expecting him to drop back and get rid of the ball, Peppers is nowhere near Aaron until he breaks to the right, again screwing Barclay big time.

Look Aaron scrambling has worked many times, just so happens that play he got caught trying to extend the play.

I guess Barcvlay is supposed to have eyes in the back of his head.

Whether The Packers bring EDS back or not, the rest of the line is going to be solid with plenty of depth. if they stay healthy.

I just prefer EDS back so there is no adjustments needing to be made a the center position.
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Offline play2win  
#42 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:52:58 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan Go to Quoted Post
I don't know what play you are watching, Rodgers had no pressure on him, he did what he has done many times,(instead of throwing the ball away), he saw what he thought was a chance to extend the play by breaking the pocket, Barclay is expecting him to drop back and get rid of the ball, Peppers is nowhere near Aaron until he breaks to the right, again screwing Barclay big time.

Look Aaron scrambling has worked many times, just so happens that play he got caught trying to extend the play.

I guess Barcvlay is supposed to have eyes in the back of his head.

Whether The Packers bring EDS back or not, the rest of the line is going to be solid with plenty of depth. if they stay healthy.

I just prefer EDS back so there is no adjustments needing to be made a the center position.


I watched the same play. I guess we have a different take on what Aaron's options were on that, and why. Stop watching Barclay, as he was not at fault. Watch Bakhtiari. His failed block allowed Peppers to bust the pocket completely, forcing Aaron to his right.

Yeah, it happens. Aaron has created many a great play outside the pocket. This time is just happened to cost him half a season with a broken collar bone. But, saying the OL was not responsible ignores a failed block that forced Aaron into trouble. Right?
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DakotaT on 2/15/2014(UTC), texaspackerbacker on 2/15/2014(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#43 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 9:04:44 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Did you read what I said at all? My point about "big gap between Sitton and Lang" is the point that there are multiple levels of play. I do NOT believe we have to get Sitton level players to improve over the performance of Lang, Bulaga, et al.

There have been great offensive lines, and none of them have been All-Pros across the line. But all of them have been better, a lot better, than the Packer OL during the Thompson/McCarthy years.

I'm sorry, but the "we can't afford more" won't wash with me. Not over a nine year period. Yeah, they have a lot of money invested in Lang. They also have a lot of money invested in Brad Jones. Sometimes money is badly invested. Nine years of putting your NFL money in the Langs and Jones of the world is evidence of bad investment strategy.

The Packers may have no way of paying for improvement in the OL this year. Given the problems on defense, I won't dispute this.

But, one last time, this has not been a one year failure. This has been close to a decade of inability to put together a dominant line.

Call it being content, call it being frugal, call it being satisfied, blame it on injuries, blame it on being left in salary cap hell by Sherman, blame it on not being able to draft high enough, blame it on not coaching people up enough, call it whatever you damn want. Whatever you blame it on, the Packers have not had a dominant offensive line in the entire Ted Thompson/Mike McCarthy era.

I call it unacceptable.


I believe this is true. We haven't had a dominant OL. Not at all. Aaron's ability to get the ball out quicker than most QBs in the NFL has made whoever we've thrown out there look way better than they were. Rodgers has been one of the most sacked QBs over the last 4 or 5 years. Have to admit too, our OL has essentially been thrown together over the last 4 seasons. See what sticks to the wall...

I thought Ted should have signed Bryant McKinney last offseason as an insurance plan, since they had no real answer on the left side of the line and were once again scrambling to get it together. Had he done that, Aaron may not have blown out the collar bone… Peppers may have been blocked, allowing Rodgers to step up into the pocket.

I'd like to see some aggressive pursuit of talent by Ted for a change. We need it.

There is a ton of blame to go around, from not having the players, to injuries, to Campen's coaching, to McCarthy's slow, tepid introduction of a running game over this 4-5 years span, forcing his OL into step back pass sets absorbing the opposing DL rush instead of a balanced pass/run attack which allows our OL to tee off in run blocking.

ugh. I just hope we get this addressed. Get some players healthy. Do a better job of training and coaching and play calling.
Offline buckeyepackfan  
#44 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 9:05:53 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
I watched the same play. I guess we have a different take on what Aaron's options were on that, and why. Stop watching Barclay, as he was not at fault. Watch Bakhtiari. His failed block allowed Peppers to bust the pocket completely, forcing Aaron to his right.

Yeah, it happens. Aaron has created many a great play outside the pocket. This time is just happened to cost him half a season with a broken collar bone. But, saying the OL was not responsible ignores a failed block that forced Aaron into trouble. Right?


Take a look at Boykin, he is open, the play was 3 steps get rid of the ball, it was also 3rd and 8, Aaron pulls the ball down and scrambles instead of letting it go.

Aaron got caught scrambling, probably thinking Boykin is not going to be able to get the 1st down.

Enjoy the ride – It kicks and just keeps on kickin’.
Offline play2win  
#45 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 9:18:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan Go to Quoted Post
Take a look at Boykin, he is open, the play was 3 steps get rid of the ball, it was also 3rd and 8, Aaron pulls the ball down and scrambles instead of letting it go.

Aaron got caught scrambling, probably thinking Boykin is not going to be able to get the 1st down.



But, why are you ignoring Bakhtiari getting completely overrun by Peppers? That completely collapsed the pocket within seconds.
 
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