Cheesey
14 years ago
Hey Formo!
I guess great minds think alike!
I just decided after posting my thoughts that there was no use doing so.
But you were pretty darn close to what i said!

It's always easy to "monday morning QB" decisions that were made. Fact is, the republicans AND democrats agreed that going in was the right thing to do. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20 of course. Once we DID go in, we couldn't just back out and leave the next despot take over............god knows there were PLENTY in line, ready to do so.
I wish we would have done the same thing in North Korea. NOW look at the pickle we are in..........in fact, the whole WORLD is in, because no one had the balls to stop that dictator BEFORE he armed himself with nukes. The whole UN shook their collective fingers at him, and he KNEW they had NO TEETH, so he did whatever he wanted. The world is alot less safe now.

Of course had we STOPPED him, there would be those that would be bashing the U.S. now for doing so.
It's times like this that i am truely glad i don't have any children. What kind of a world would they be growing up in?
If they all arn't nuked by a madman, that is.
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IronMan
14 years ago
So please tell me the plan to make sure there is NEVER a repeat of Hussein. There is no plan. Because that would be impossible. And if that is the reason we are still over there, then we will be there forever.

And I like how you guys always try to turn this into democrat vs republicans. Its impossible to discuss politics with anyone, because no one can ever be objective. I once asked a friend who he was voting for and he said "John Kerry" After asking him why, he simply said, "Because I'm a democrat."

I always found it amuzing how people who have no official ties to either party, decide that they are either one or the other, and will vote that way no matter what. And whenever something goes wrong, its always the OTHER parties fault.
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
This is all I have to say about this issue.

Before the first George Bush imposed economic sanctions on Iraq, the number one epidemiological problem in Iraq was obesity. By the time we invaded Iraq the second time, the number one epidemiological problem in Iraq was starvation. Estimates range as high as 600,000 children starved to death as a direct result of the sanctions.

I've read estimates that Saddam Hussein's thugs killed as many as 35,000 to 50,000 Iraqis in the 35+ years they were in power. Sounds like a lot at first glance.

Until you consider the fact that in a mere six years since we invaded, legions more Iraqis have died (estimates range widely, from the tens of thousands to the hundreds of thousands). Thousands of doctors, lawyers, engineers, university professors, scientists, and religious leaders have been slaughtered or forced to flee. The brain drain has been frightful. Hospitals remain in critical condition. Water purification systems remain in shambles. Much of the country still doesn't have power for more than a few hours a day. The highways, formerly some of the best in the Middle East, are a wreck.

And that doesn't even count the thousands of troops we've lost over there.

We often forget that Iraq was formerly a liberal secular state. Now it's swiftly becoming, for all practical purposes, a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy. Between my first and second deployments I was shocked at the level of deterioration I saw. Before we invaded Iraq, a woman could walk the streets of Baghdad alone in blue jeans without fear. Now she must walk around in full hijaab with a male escort to avoid being targeted by Islamic fundamentalists.

So I ask you: Who really unleashed terror in Iraq?

Whether in ousting Saddam Hussein we did what had to be done is a matter for debate, but to say we are leaving Iraq a better place is just laughable. Saddam Hussein may have been an evil man, but he understood intuitively something we can't seem to figure out: The country of Iraq is an unnatural entity that can only be held together through sheer threat of force. The Iraqis are not an individualistic culture like ours; they are a collectivist tribal culture. They don't want democracy; they never have; and they probably never will. So why don't we just let them have the kind of government they want and solve our own mounting problems at home?
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IronMan
14 years ago
NSD nailed it. Absolutely NAILED it.
Gravedigga
14 years ago

3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

"djcubez" wrote:


Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

"Cheesey" wrote:


Darfur, Rwanda, Tibet, Brazil, West Guinea...I could go on. Why are we allowed to turn our backs on these genocides but it's NOT ok to turn our backs on Iraq...

"cm_awesome" wrote:



Exactly!! The hypocrisy really makes me sick. Do we care or not? Care a little, a lot, for these people but not those people. Why are we not liberating the people of North Korea? Or Iran? Bring them democracy...............that we just sat & sit back letting this genocide in Africa happen, when we knew about it........God it makes me hate our politicians so much. Hard not to be ashamed of our countries politics.
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A wise man once said
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Gravedigga, if you want to organize a mercenary force on your own dime to invade all the countries you feel aren't getting it right, you go right ahead. You have every right to perform whatever activist functions you want with your own money. It's not the rightful role of our military to impose our will -- our perception of what is right and wrong -- on every country just because we want to. And we don't have the resources to do it even if it were the right thing to do.
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Gravedigga
14 years ago

3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

"Formo" wrote:


Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

"djcubez" wrote:


Darfur, Rwanda, Tibet, Brazil, West Guinea...I could go on. Why are we allowed to turn our backs on these genocides but it's NOT ok to turn our backs on Iraq...

"Cheesey" wrote:



Tactically, they don't/didn't make as much sense? Who really knows? Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

"cm_awesome" wrote:



Maybe i'm wrong. It looks like you're saying that it would be harder to do so lets stay out of it. If our government thought like that, i'd be disgusted
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A wise man once said
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Gravedigga
14 years ago

3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

"IronMan" wrote:


Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

"Cheesey" wrote:


They captured Hussein 6 years ago. Why are we still there? What is the exit strategy?

I DO appreciate the efforts by our military servicemen and women.

"cm_awesome" wrote:



Think of it in terms of a gang, like maybe the bloods and crips.

You go over to a rival gang leader and kill him. The war does not stop, it only gets worse where they retaliate even harder than you. Only way for one gang to win is to wipe out all the threats in the other gang neighborhood and put your own people in there or let the good people there take over.
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A wise man once said
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I should clarify that I wasn't accusing the United States military of slaughtering the intelligentsia of Iraq. I was saying that in removing the stabilizing force that was Saddam Hussein, we helped unleash a wave of reprisals that had been stewing for decades. The Shi'a, who are largely uneducated herdsmen, have been targeting Sunni professionals with a vengeance. Classic class warfare and heartbreaking to behold.
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Gravedigga
14 years ago

Gravedigga, if you want to organize a mercenary force on your own dime to invade all the countries you feel aren't getting it right, you go right ahead. You have every right to perform whatever activist functions you want with your own money. It's not the rightful role of our military to impose our will -- our perception of what is right and wrong -- on every country just because we want to. And we don't have the resources to do it even if it were the right thing to do.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



It's not that, it's the hypocrisy. We say, he has WMD's. We cant find them. We say we have to liberate the people of IRAQ, we did it. We say we have to make sure their government is in place and safe before we can leave. We dont even publicly recognize what is going on in Darfur. During the Olympics, we were all hush hush about it politically because China is involved in teh exploitation. Threatening to expel athletes if they bring up the issue. What the hell?

Why'd we go to Vietnam? Why'd we go to Iraq in the first place in 1990? Why do we help out Cubans and give different rules for the Hatians?

Everyone wants to talk immigration and complain yet we dont mind the modern day slavery with mass amounts of Mexicans working for peanuts doing jobs Americans wont do for the money.

Just amazes me how openly full of shit politicians and the news can be in this day and get away with it.
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A wise man once said
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