play2win
10 years ago

I don't see why people have such a problem with the 2-4-5. That's just a basic nickle package, and is the a staple of a 3-4 defense. What else do you want? Remove Perry/Mathews from the field for another defensive linemen? Take a DB out and put in another defensive linemen? Both of those ideas have big drawbacks. If it's an issue with the timing of a nickle package call, that's one thing, but disliking a nickle defense overall just seems silly to me. It's basically the standard in the NFL these days, and might as well be the "base" package for most teams in most games. With Perry or Neal on the field, it's basically just like having three defensive linemen on the field anyway, because the distinction between LB and DL is just a matter of labeling for them. Defensive end or linebacker, it really doesn't make much difference.

Originally Posted by: DoddPower 



We are down a number of LBs due to injury. What else do I want? How about flexing to a 4-3? We have the DL healthy enough for this. Makes perfect sense. I don't see why Dom doesn't go to this more often. Where is Josh Boyd?

From what I've seen, GB in a 2-4-5 is and has been, for years, very, very ineffective. That's why I don't want to see it anymore. We need pass rush. Our secondary is getting killed without getting more pressure on a consistent basis. Raji, Picket, Jolly and Wilson have combined to make 1 sack on the season. One. Jolly. Datone has 3. Daniels 4.5. Through 9 games.

Only 2 INTs by our secondary (Shields and House with one each). As a team, our defense is dead last in the NFL in INTs with 3. To me, that points to a lack of pressure, and all I see when we go to a 2-4-5 is a lack of pressure on the opposing QB.
PackFanWithTwins
10 years ago
What makes me scratch my head. When we don't get pressure and the QB has time, it never fails that a WR/TE will come open across the middle. 8-15 yards deep, behind the LBers and in front of our Safeties. Yet, when Rodgers is in the pocket with time, we don't seem to have the same, we seem to always have our receivers at the sidelines.

The question is, is that a difference in offensive strategy in scramble drills, or is it designed for that to be against our defense because that is one of the weak spots.

There are two traditional weak spots in our passing defense, the 10-15 yard area across the board both on edges and middle. But how do we stop it? The best way is to get pressure so the routes don't have to develop into that area. As far as coverage what can we do?

Drop LBers deeper in the middle, seems all that would do is open up the short crossing routes.

Personally, I think this also goes back to not having Nick Collins deep. He had the speed to cover sideline to sideline and could be left deep by himself. Now we have to run more 2 deep or shared deep responsibility making the entire middle softer.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
Zero2Cool
10 years ago
If I had to make a case to fire/replace Dom Capers, it would go something like this.

2009 when your offense scores 45, you need to win, period.
Packers 45
Cardinals 51

2010 bang up awesome job that netted XLV

2011 giving up 37 points in a playoff game???
Packers 20
Giants 37

2012 giving up 45 points in a playoff game???
Packers 31
49ers 45



Three times out of four his defense has failed when it needs to absolutely SHOW UP.
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nerdmann
10 years ago

What makes me scratch my head. When we don't get pressure and the QB has time, it never fails that a WR/TE will come open across the middle. 8-15 yards deep, behind the LBers and in front of our Safeties. Yet, when Rodgers is in the pocket with time, we don't seem to have the same, we seem to always have our receivers at the sidelines.

The question is, is that a difference in offensive strategy in scramble drills, or is it designed for that to be against our defense because that is one of the weak spots.

There are two traditional weak spots in our passing defense, the 10-15 yard area across the board both on edges and middle. But how do we stop it? The best way is to get pressure so the routes don't have to develop into that area. As far as coverage what can we do?

Drop LBers deeper in the middle, seems all that would do is open up the short crossing routes.

Personally, I think this also goes back to not having Nick Collins deep. He had the speed to cover sideline to sideline and could be left deep by himself. Now we have to run more 2 deep or shared deep responsibility making the entire middle softer.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 



Capers always seems to leave the middle of the field uncovered. So if I'm an opposing OC, of course I'm gonna drag a guy across the middle.

Now our QB has guys open underneath, he just wants to throw deep instead.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
10 years ago


Personally, I think this also goes back to not having Nick Collins deep. He had the speed to cover sideline to sideline and could be left deep by himself. Now we have to run more 2 deep or shared deep responsibility making the entire middle softer.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 



it is not going to get better soon. The draft looks extremely weak at FS


cbs
Player		                       School	Class	Ht.	Wt.	Proj. Round
Hasean Clinton-Dix	Alabama	Jr	6-1	208	1
Lamarcus Joyner	        Florida State	Sr	5-8	190	2
Dion Bailey	                So Cal	rJr	6-0	200	2-3
Terrence Brooks	        Fl State	Sr	5-11	200	3-4
Tre Boston		        N C	Sr	6-0	205	3-4
Ty Zimmerman	        Kansas St	rSr	6-1	204	4
Kenny Ladler	        Vanderbilt	Sr	6-0	205	4-5
Marqueston Huff	        Wyoming	Sr	5-11	195	5
Nickoe Whitley	        Miss St	rSr	6-0	205	5-6
Avery Patterson	        Oregon	rSr	5-9	190	6-7

other web site have more in the 2nd 3rd than CBS but they also include SS and I don't want to take the time to separate them.
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DoddPower
10 years ago

We are down a number of LBs due to injury. What else do I want? How about flexing to a 4-3? We have the DL healthy enough for this. Makes perfect sense. I don't see why Dom doesn't go to this more often. Where is Josh Boyd?

From what I've seen, GB in a 2-4-5 is and has been, for years, very, very ineffective. That's why I don't want to see it anymore. We need pass rush. Our secondary is getting killed without getting more pressure on a consistent basis. Raji, Picket, Jolly and Wilson have combined to make 1 sack on the season. One. Jolly. Datone has 3. Daniels 4.5. Through 9 games.

Only 2 INTs by our secondary (Shields and House with one each). As a team, our defense is dead last in the NFL in INTs with 3. To me, that points to a lack of pressure, and all I see when we go to a 2-4-5 is a lack of pressure on the opposing QB.

Originally Posted by: play2win 



I don't think Jolly, Pickett, Boyd, or Wilson would improve the pass rush, at all. In fact, it would probably make it worse. Those players offer very little in the pass rushing department. Raji has the ability, but disappears for long stretches. That only leaves a combination of Raji/Daniels/Jones as pass rushing defensive linemen. The Packers best pass rushers are Clay Mathews, Nick Perry, and probably Neal, although he might be tied with Daniels, at this point. Therefore, when healthy, I would want Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry on the field on passing downs, which is what happens when those players are healthy. Raji is exchangeable with any other player, and hopefully Datone Jones pushes him out of the sub-packages.

You may not like the Packers pass rushing options, but that's the best they have to offer at this point, imo. The Packers have a lot of defensive linemen, but only really one or two that are actually effective with their pass rush. Adding more space eating run-stuffing players to the field on passing downs doesn't sound like it would help things at all.

With that being said, I agree with you that more creativity would be nice. I would love to see a combination of a 4-3/3-4 defense, especially on early downs. I've wanted something like that for years now, but it rarely happens. I don't find Capers very creative at all. He has some interesting looking blitzes, but most of them have become relatively familiar to opposing defenses.

Either way, the key to the pass rush is getting Mathews and Perry fully healthy. Otherwise, let's hope to reload in the off season, I guess.

EDIT: Perhaps Worthy will come back at some point, too. He probably wouldn't be effective this season anyway, but he certainly has/had the potential to be a good pass rusher in the middle. It's worth a shot. He'd probably provide more value than some of the other fringe players.
texaspackerbacker
10 years ago
I assume you guys are aware, 2 down linemen or 3 doesn't necessarily mean a 2 or 3 man rush. Aranda - the Badger D coordinator, as well as New Orleans against Dallas have used an alignment with 0 down linemen - about 5 line or LB types standing along the line, creating confusion as to exactly where the pass rush will come from. THAT is just a more extreme version of our 2-4-5.

The last thing we need is a big fatty like Raji in the game in passing situations. For that matter, we don't need a big softy like Raji in for run situations also - getting pushed around like he weighs about half what he really does.
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wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
10 years ago
yes we are aware if you read my earlier post I said I want 4 fattys that will clog the middle of the line and collapse the pocket into the QBs lap not allowing him the time or the place in which to step up and make a throw.
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play2win
10 years ago

I don't think Jolly, Pickett, Boyd, or Wilson would improve the pass rush, at all. In fact, it would probably make it worse. Those players offer very little in the pass rushing department. Raji has the ability, but disappears for long stretches. That only leaves a combination of Raji/Daniels/Jones as pass rushing defensive linemen. The Packers best pass rushers are Clay Mathews, Nick Perry, and probably Neal, although he might be tied with Daniels, at this point. Therefore, when healthy, I would want Mathews, Daniels, Raji, and Perry on the field on passing downs, which is what happens when those players are healthy. Raji is exchangeable with any other player, and hopefully Datone Jones pushes him out of the sub-packages.

You may not like the Packers pass rushing options, but that's the best they have to offer at this point, imo. The Packers have a lot of defensive linemen, but only really one or two that are actually effective with their pass rush. Adding more space eating run-stuffing players to the field on passing downs doesn't sound like it would help things at all.

With that being said, I agree with you that more creativity would be nice. I would love to see a combination of a 4-3/3-4 defense, especially on early downs. I've wanted something like that for years now, but it rarely happens. I don't find Capers very creative at all. He has some interesting looking blitzes, but most of them have become relatively familiar to opposing defenses.

Either way, the key to the pass rush is getting Mathews and Perry fully healthy. Otherwise, let's hope to reload in the off season, I guess.

EDIT: Perhaps Worthy will come back at some point, too. He probably wouldn't be effective this season anyway, but he certainly has/had the potential to be a good pass rusher in the middle. It's worth a shot. He'd probably provide more value than some of the other fringe players.

Originally Posted by: DoddPower 



Yeah, DoddPower, I've been thinking about Worthy too. It is possible this DL gets the shake up at some point if they continue to fall to produce. I expected more from CJ Wilson early in the season, and more from both Raji and Pickett, and Jolly for that matter. The larger point is we have two other players that we have not heard from at all who are supposed to be fairly adept at getting to the QB, and both have relatively quick feet for their size in Boyd and Worthy.

Maybe we do see one or both of these players in the lineup before long. I've been wanting to see us flex into 4-3 for years, and now would be a great time to try it. I know what you are saying about our outside rushers in Perry and Neal, but remember Perry was at his best in a 4-3 coming off the edge at USC. He could be more effective with his hand down in a 4-3. He's been OK standing up, getting 3 sacks on the year, but I'd like to see him flying in off the edge in a 4-3. Maybe Dom implements this. We'll see.

With all these LBs having gone down, and a dearth of DL at their disposal, it wouldn't hurt.
steveishere
10 years ago
I think the best pass rush option in a 4-3 would be Perry-Raji-Daniels-Neal and have Clay Matthews at LB similar to what Von Miller does. Clay has enough ability and versatility that I don't buy arguments that his contract would prevent the team from leaving a 3-4 he would make a huge impact in any defense. We have the people to pull it off at least on paper but the biggest issue is there's too much depth at DT and 0 at DE. I think they'll stay at 3-4 and if Capers is fired look for a new coach that will run a 3-4 though. I don't see why Dom can't use some 4-3 elements or alignments sometimes though a lot of the 3-4 defenses do that like Baltimore
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