Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago

The PATRIOT Act works retroactively going back 15 years, so activities that were perfectly legal at the time they took place could now be considered terrorist and, therefore, criminal.



I don't understand how this has possibly withstood a legal challenge. Article 1, Section 9, Clause 3 of the Constitution explicitly forbids Congress from passing ex post facto laws, which is exactly what this is.

I have to think the Supreme Court would strike this down if anyone challenged it. It's such a bald defiance of the Constitution.

May I remind everyone one more time that this heinous piece of legislation was signed into law by a Republican president. When it comes to my civil liberties, I fear moralistic conservatives far more than guilty liberals.
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Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago
No less a one than Thomas Jefferson wrote on August 13, 1813 in a letter to Isaac McPherson:

The sentiment that ex post facto laws are against natural right is so strong in the United States, that few, if any, of the State constitutions have failed to proscribe them. The federal constitution indeed interdicts them in criminal cases only; but they are equally unjust in civil as in criminal cases, and the omission of a caution which would have been right, does not justify the doing what is wrong. Nor ought it to be presumed that the legislature meant to use a phrase in an unjustifiable sense, if by rules of construction it can be ever strained to what is just.


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djcubez
13 years ago

The PATRIOT Act works retroactively going back 15 years, so activities that were perfectly legal at the time they took place could now be considered terrorist and, therefore, criminal.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I don't understand how this has possibly withstood a legal challenge. Article 1, Section 9, Clause 3 of the Constitution explicitly forbids Congress from passing ex post facto laws, which is exactly what this is.

I have to think the Supreme Court would strike this down if anyone challenged it. It's such a bald defiance of the Constitution.

May I remind everyone one more time that this heinous piece of legislation was signed into law by a Republican president. When it comes to my civil liberties, I fear moralistic conservatives far more than guilty liberals.



Full paragraph:

The PATRIOT Act works retroactively going back 15 years, so activities that were perfectly legal at the time they took place could now be considered terrorist and, therefore, criminal. Under the terms of the Patriot Act, individuals involved in anything defined as terrorist activity as far back as 15 years ago could be pursued. The effect of this provision is to retroactively criminalize activities that were not criminal -- indeed, that were constitutionally protected -- at the time they were undertaken.
As we think about the implications of this we should remember that political groups long treated as subversive have now become highly admired official governments. Nelson Mandelas political party, the African National Congress (ANC), for example, was involved in what might be described as revolutionary activities in the late 1980s as they struggled to replace the apartheid government. Many people in the U.S. and around the world, however, provided as much support as they could to Mandela (who was then in prison) and his colleagues because they, too, believed that the racist government should be replaced by a government that genuinely served the South African population. In 1994 Mandela did win the presidency, South Africa was transformed, and Mandela is now seen as one of the truly great political leaders of the 20th century and perhaps all time. Still, under the terms of the PATRIOT Act it would be possible to define the ANC as having been a terrorist group and those U.S. citizens who engaged in such activities as promoting economic boycotts of South Africa in support of the ANC as engaged in terrorist activity that is now considered illegal as well even though that activity took place before the PATRIOT Act was passed.



However after doing some googling I can't seem to completely confirm this.
Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago
Well, anyone who considers Nelson Mandela a hero has never actually studied the events of the revolution he headed up. It was truly a barbaric movement.

Youtube "necklacing" for examples of the atrocities his henchmen committed on those who opposed them.
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Pack93z
13 years ago

Planes are privately owned so by purchasing a ticket you're entering a contract in which you agree to what would normally be an unlawful search.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Ah, but here you're glossing over a very important concept. Yes, purchasing the ticket amounts to a contract with the privately owned airline. Therefore, the customer must agree to abide by whatever regulations the airline itself imposes upon its own property, just as when your'e a guest in my house, you must obey by my rules or I have every right to kick you out.

The issue people like Wade, zombieslayer, and myself have with the TSA arrangement is that the government has taken it upon itself to impose these security provisions. When I purchase that ticket, my contract is with the airline, not with the government, which has (without my consent) made itself a third party to that contract.

I don't think any of us would have an issue with submitting to reasonable security procedures implemented by the airlines themselves. They obviously have a vested interest in protecting their own assets. When the entities implementing the security protocols are agents of the government, though, they should have to abide by constitutional guidelines, which (no matter what the Supreme Court for the sake of expediency may have found) I don't believe they are.

"djcubez" wrote:



But the question is who owns the airports, regulates and dictates the airport slots?

The US government via the FAA and local airport authorities. No differently than the US roads they govern.

So, they have always been charged with the public's safety in air travel, so again how don't they all of a sudden not have authority over how the airlines screen for safety?

The TSA, in its pure nature, is the ensure that the safety standards across the country are uniform and there isn't a lax soft spot.. see Logan pre-9/11.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago
The U.S. government owns the airports? Where is this documented?
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Pack93z
13 years ago

The U.S. government owns the airports? Where is this documented?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



http://ardent.mit.edu/airports/ASP_papers/airport%20privatization%20issues%20for%20US.PDF 

Here is a 2008 document talking about privatizing Midway.. the first to do so..

http://wagner.nyu.edu/rudincenter/events/david.PPT 

However Per their website.. the city of Chicago owns it.

http://www.chicago-midway-mdw.airports-guides.com/ 

Midway Airport is owned by the City of Chicago and boasts more than 300,000 yearly landings and take-offs. The site features plenty of interest for passengers and even contains an actual WWII SBD Dauntless Dive-Bomber plane, which is suspended high from the ceiling of Concourse A.




http://www.flychicago.com/About/Midway/Default.aspx 

Chicago Department of Aviation in fact.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago
That was my understanding as well. I think most airports are owned by municipalities, not the federal government.
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Pack93z
13 years ago
I inadvertently stated US government.. but they are owned by Local Airport Municipalities or Authorities regulated by the FAA..

Ask yourself this.. whom controls the Airtraffic in this country and dictates the conditions met by the airports themselves?

The FAA.. a direct arm of the Federal government and can halt a plane at any point.

Go past this issue.. how would individual airlines control security in these massive hubs with open concourses and terminals.. have checkpoints at the gates.. really that is going to save time and hassle. And more importantly.. would it be safer? Logistics of it all.. come up with a simpler and better answer than a centralized process.

Probably not.. just more chaos and confusion.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Rockmolder
13 years ago

I inadvertently stated US government.. but they are owned by Local Airport Municipalities or Authorities regulated by the FAA..

Ask yourself this.. whom controls the Airtraffic in this country and dictates the conditions met by the airports themselves?

The FAA.. a direct arm of the Federal government and can halt a plane at any point.

Go past this issue.. how would individual airlines control security in this massive hubs with open concourses and terminals.. have checkpoints at the gates.. really that is going to save time and hassle. And more importantly.. would it be safer?

Probably not.. just more chaos and confusion.

"pack93z" wrote:



And how much would they really control?

These controls and security checks are costing them a ton of money. From a business stand point, it might just be cheaper to have an airplane go down every once in a while instead of paying all the costs connected to having a secure airspace.
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