Barfarn
7 years ago

Actually, I don't recall ever advocating drafting Ragland unless a whole list of players with 2nd/3rd round value were all gone.

And the reason I dropped him into the third or early fourth on my board was the same reason I dropped Martinez to the 6th. The lack of speed.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Speed...Schmeed

Darren Lee and Martinez are 10 yards away from a play. Martinez recognizes the play .1 seconds faster than Lee because he's a better football player. Who gets to ball carrier first?

Answer: Martinez

Once there, who makes the better tackle? Answer: Martinez

At 20 yards, under the same conditions, Lee gets there .03 seconds before Martinez; but Martinez is more efficient at the tackle. There respective value: a wash.

At 10, 20, 40 yards from play, Martinez correctly reads his key and immediately moves to make play...Lee takes a step in wrong direction keying on ball instead of his playbook key...who gets there first? Answer Martinez every time.

Now take off the shorts and put on some pads, who's faster? I think the speed gap closes.

Then put blockers trying to interfere with their respective path to the ball, who is better at working through that traffic? Answer: Martinez, so if there's blocker in the way, despite their respective speed, Martinez gets their first.


Today, Martinez in the more valuable ILB. Going forward, if Lee learns the game at a much faster pace than Martinez; then unequivocally Lee will be the better player that that time. But to date Lee has not been the faster learner.

Speed counts, but it is a relatively small variable compared to other things, like ability to QUICKLY diagnose a play or to know your playbook assignments.

Oh and about "speed;" do you know what Martinez's fastest 40 time was? Answer: 4.52!
7 years ago

Speed...Schmeed

Darren Lee and Martinez are 10 yards away from a play. Martinez recognizes the play .1 seconds faster than Lee because he's a better football player. Who gets to ball carrier first?

Answer: Martinez

Once there, who makes the better tackle? Answer: Martinez

At 20 yards, under the same conditions, Lee gets there .03 seconds before Martinez; but Martinez is more efficient at the tackle. There respective value: a wash.

At 10, 20, 40 yards from play, Martinez correctly reads his key and immediately moves to make play...Lee takes a step in wrong direction keying on ball instead of his playbook key...who gets there first? Answer Martinez every time.

Now take off the shorts and put on some pads, who's faster? I think the speed gap closes.

Then put blockers trying to interfere with their respective path to the ball, who is better at working through that traffic? Answer: Martinez, so if there's blocker in the way, despite their respective speed, Martinez gets their first.


Today, Martinez in the more valuable ILB. Going forward, if Lee learns the game at a much faster pace than Martinez; then unequivocally Lee will be the better player that that time. But to date Lee has not been the faster learner.

Speed counts, but it is a relatively small variable compared to other things, like ability to QUICKLY diagnose a play or to know your playbook assignments.

Oh and about "speed;" do you know what Martinez's fastest 40 time was? Answer: 4.52!

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 




I agree with the general idea of what you're saying, however have you actually watched Lee play ball? The difference in speed is INCREDIBLE with pads on. Watch the Playoff game against Alabama if you want a summary of what Lee has the potential to do.
Barfarn
7 years ago

I agree with the general idea of what you're saying, however have you actually watched Lee play ball? The difference in speed is INCREDIBLE with pads on. Watch the Playoff game against Alabama if you want a summary of what Lee has the potential to do.

Originally Posted by: FLORIDA PACKER88 



Bama game [Lee was a RS fresh in that game]?

Lee looks faster in pads; but dont see the difference as "incredible." If we look at 4.47 to 4.71 [that's .24 seconds over 40 yards] at combine in underwear, that gap closes with pads. The timed gap is further closed with Martinez looking more fluid in pads [This is also represented by his 4.2 and 6.98 in shuttle and cone to Lee's 4.2 and 7.12].

And yes, in Bama game Lee had 2 sacks and another TFL, pretty good; but that is 3 plays. What did he do the other 60-70 plays? Note: no one blocked Lee on 1 sack and he benefited on a coverage sack for 2nd [because OSU plays with 11 studs on D]. Lee had one pressure and made a few other nice plays. But…

At 9:53 1Q. Lee comes to LOS on left probably with outside contain and should flow to the ball always maintain leverage to the backside. But he chases ball carrier running right, realizing too late the ball was faked and QB runs up middle past him.

9:33 1Q, QB hands off ball to Henry who goes right. QB fake sprints out left and Lee again bites, taking a false step preventing from recovering and chasing down Henry who ran for a 25 yard TD.

5:11 1Q- ball is faked to full back up middle, Lee takes a false step inside and pitch goes to RB who runs outside. Lee uses his speed to recover and avoid a WR block to get outside allowing him only to get a shoe string tackle. But he goes high on Henry who just swats him away like a mosquito. [Note Lee was a missed-tackling machine, OSU stats show 22 in 2 years].

This is 3 consecutive athletic plays of a bad football player.

This last play is the perfect example of which I speak. Martinez probably doesn’t take the false step inside and beats Lee to Henry outside. Maybe Martinez doesn’t make tackle either, Henry is pretty good, but he at least is in better position and slows him down more.

Lee’s lesser awareness of the ball and taking more false steps makes Martinez the guy who gets to ball carrier first, notwithstanding that in skivvies from a track start Lee USUALLY [not always] times faster.
nerdmann
7 years ago
Randall and Rollins didn't have the best timed speeds last year as DBs. But they're ball hawks. They know how to play the ball in the air, and they know how to make a play on it.

I heard PFF rated Martinez at the top of college football in coverage.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Yerko
7 years ago

Actually, I don't recall ever advocating drafting Ragland unless a whole list of players with 2nd/3rd round value were all gone.

And the reason I dropped him into the third or early fourth on my board was the same reason I dropped Martinez to the 6th. The lack of speed.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Wade- I haven't seen your board so I apologize for lumping you into the category. Unfortunately, when I find myself bored I lurk the comment section of the Green Bay Packers FB page and there were tons of fans that were pissed we didn't draft Ragland and in the same sentence were calling Martinez slow. It just blows my mind sometimes. I shouldn't bring that filth into the PH discussion board.

As far as coverage, what do you make of PFF grading him as the best coverage ILB of the draft? Aside from Darron Lee (who was already selected) and Myles Jack, is there anyone else you would have suggested they took? These are really the only two guys that could have the speed you are referring to and Myles Jack injury is a huge red flag.

I really think Martinez will turn out to be a good player in this scheme. I am not expecting an immediate impact but I am hopeful that he will be groomed to be a good ILB for the Packers.
UserPostedImage
Zero2Cool
7 years ago

Wade- I haven't seen your board

Originally Posted by: Yerko 


Here is Wade's board ...
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
7 years ago

Wade- I haven't seen your board so I apologize for lumping you into the category. Unfortunately, when I find myself bored I lurk the comment section of the Green Bay Packers FB page and there were tons of fans that were pissed we didn't draft Ragland and in the same sentence were calling Martinez slow. It just blows my mind sometimes. I shouldn't bring that filth into the PH discussion board.

As far as coverage, what do you make of PFF grading him as the best coverage ILB of the draft? Aside from Darron Lee (who was already selected) and Myles Jack, is there anyone else you would have suggested they took? These are really the only two guys that could have the speed you are referring to and Myles Jack injury is a huge red flag.

I really think Martinez will turn out to be a good player in this scheme. I am not expecting an immediate impact but I am hopeful that he will be groomed to be a good ILB for the Packers.

Originally Posted by: Yerko 



Most people are with you. I guess what I saw (and Kevin will be quick to point out that I haven't seen much) disagreed with the PFF grade. But, as many have pointed out, none of the GMs picked Billings at DT until well into the fourth round, and I had him being worth a trade up of 5-10 positions by the Packers in round 1.

In short, I don't know much.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
7 years ago

Here is Wade's board ...
UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well. Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?

I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time. Really missed on that one.


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
mi_keys
7 years ago

Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well. Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?

I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time. Really missed on that one.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Well, here's to hoping you're as wrong about Martinez as you were Collins and that you're just as right about every other pick. Will be one hell of a draft then. [cheers]
Born and bred a cheesehead
Zero2Cool
7 years ago

Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well. Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?

I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time. Really missed on that one.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



My board would simply be 🤷 lol


I lost my ambition to complain when Greg Jennings was taken over Chad Jackson and witnessing who was wrong (me) and who was right (Packers). It was clear I can't trust ESPN or anything I read about players. Simply not worth getting worked up about. I'm just not one of the grades before pads kinda fellas.
UserPostedImage
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (2h) : Former #Packers TE Josiah Deguara is signing a 1-year deal with the Jaguars, per source.
Zero2Cool (3h) : They do not do it for "content sake".
dfosterf (13h) : For the record, I enjoy Beast and Mucky drafts
Zero2Cool (20h) : Haha
Mucky Tundra (21h) : No time for talking! Back to work beast!
beast (22h) : You saw only 4,201 of my mocks? 🥺 I think that means you missed more than half of them 😢
dfosterf (27-Mar) : Does anyone know what Lambeau field improvements got put on hold? My guess would be for the 2025 draft
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : It's like listen, you made 4,201 mocks, no shit.
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : Cuz during the draft "I had them mocked there!" as if it's amazing.
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : They're fun to do once in awhile. It's people who think they are "content" that annoy me.
dfosterf (27-Mar) : Against tbd
dfosterf (27-Mar) : Answer to your question is yes, it's a Thursday, will be the Chiefs aga
dfosterf (27-Mar) : Luckily for all concerned, I don't post them. I did one, but that was like 25 mocks ago
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : NFL 2024 gonna start Sept 5th isn't it???
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : Ugh... kids these days!
dfosterf (27-Mar) : I'm gonna go do some more mock draft hell instead 🤪
Zero2Cool (27-Mar) : Did we do one of those prediction threads yet for 2024 season?
dfosterf (27-Mar) : In my city, they are playing the nimby game, in order to keep some railroad tracks vs. 2 professional sports teams and a concert venue.
dfosterf (27-Mar) : And/Or a city council, of which I haven't seen a good one in a very long time
dfosterf (27-Mar) : That sounds like a Mayor, not a city.
buckeyepackfan (26-Mar) : Packers halt scheduled 80mil upgrade of stadium until lease agreement talks are restarted
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : City of Green Bay puts Packers' Lambeau Field lease talks on hold
buckeyepackfan (26-Mar) : Packers 1 of 3 teams to vote no on new kickoff rule.
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : Packers sign another Kicker
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Lengthy explanation at PFF if you click the link
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Kickoff rules officially changed.ngthy explan
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : lol
Cheesey (26-Mar) : 2009? No thanks! One open heart surgery is enough!
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Good for you!
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : Yes. That's the one.
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Is that "Lady Dugan" per chance?
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Crystal?
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Please refresh my memory
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : Alan posts. Crystal back in my life. It's 2009 all over again! Lol
Mucky Tundra (26-Mar) : BAH GAWD! THAT'S CHEESEYS MUSIC!
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Gutekunst said early stages of Jordan Love contract being discussed.
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Shouldn't be penalized cuz official screwed up
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Yeah, challenge until you are incorrect twice.
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Fining them is the goal, per the people who made the rule anyway.
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Still waiting on the kickoff rule changes. Did hear yesterday that the touchback proposal will now be the 30 yard line, not the 35
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Probably speed of game issues with your proposal
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Hopefully the refs don't get in the habit of throwing flags on this
beast (25-Mar) : I think when it comes to Challenges should get two strikes, so unlimited challenges as long as they keep winning them, but 2 wrong then done
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Still subject to the fines etc
dfosterf (25-Mar) : Yes, I should have been more specific. Also, they are now saying it would be a 15 yard penalty. That makes more sense .
beast (25-Mar) : Simply fined in the week to follow
beast (25-Mar) : I agree with one NFL official, it'll probably be like some of the helmets hits, not really called by the refs on the field but simply fined
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Hip drop is not. Super confusing. Referees job is harder
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : Swivel hip drop is banned
dfosterf (25-Mar) : The hip drop enforcement will be in the form of fines, etc. Not flags
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2023 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 10 @ 3:25 PM
Bears
Sunday, Sep 17 @ 12:00 PM
Falcons
Sunday, Sep 24 @ 12:00 PM
SAINTS
Thursday, Sep 28 @ 7:15 PM
LIONS
Monday, Oct 9 @ 7:15 PM
Raiders
Sunday, Oct 22 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Sunday, Oct 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Nov 5 @ 12:00 PM
RAMS
Sunday, Nov 12 @ 12:00 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 19 @ 12:00 PM
CHARGERS
Thursday, Nov 23 @ 11:30 AM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 3 @ 7:20 PM
CHIEFS
Monday, Dec 11 @ 7:15 PM
Giants
Sunday, Dec 17 @ 12:00 PM
BUCCANEERS
Sunday, Dec 24 @ 12:00 PM
Panthers
Sunday, Dec 31 @ 7:20 PM
Vikings
Sunday, Jan 7 @ 3:25 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Jan 14 @ 3:30 PM
Cowboys
Saturday, Jan 20 @ 7:15 PM
49ers
Recent Topics
14h / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

14h / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

14h / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

21h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

27-Mar / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

27-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

26-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

26-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

26-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

25-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

25-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

24-Mar / Around The NFL / dhazer

24-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

24-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

22-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2024 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.